NikiVee

I'm at a loss to see how everyone is saying Pontiac will get the axe out of Zeta cancelled.

If anything is should be Buick

If I go by sales figures alone.
Buick sold 26536 cars
Pontiac sold 49543 cars
Saturn sold 15022 cars


Seems to me Buick or Saturn should go just based on February sales alone.

Pontiac is the number 3 sales division, why would they axe Pontiac??? I'm missing something here.

guionM

You mean just "give" away 3 billion dollars for S and G??!

General Motors studies things to death. Perhaps GM studies too many things when they should simply just do, but everything GM does can be backed up.

The reason Saturn recieved 5 billion is that GM did a study on them, and found out that people viewed Saturn as a foreign brand despite it being part of GM & made here in the US. That's why Saturn isn't going anywhere, and it's getting a pretty good sized fortune to enhance it's model lineup.

IF GM decides to cut Pontiac, it's because they have studied the situation (probally to death again) and decided that Pontiac buyers also buy Chevrolet & Buick. Or perhaps that Pontiac's lineup is redundant with other divisions, and it's customer base isn't enough to sustain it.

From a business standpoint, If a division had to go, I couldn't make a case to keep Pontiac and neither could you. History? The name? 2nd biggest brand? All useless when it's the same customer base as Chevrolet.

I'll tell you what I WOULD do to try keep all of GM divisions.

Slash the begeezus out of Pontiac's lineup and their dealer network.

If Pontiac is going to be the excitement division, it should act like it. GXP & GTP should be the only Pontiacs. Forget current base models. Grand Prix means the new 5.3 V8 version. G6 means the 3.5, 250 horse, 4 cam V6 and the Grand Am name. GTO is fine as is. You shouldn't have to get a GXP Bonneville to have a Bonne that isn't crap in handling & performance. Tell me again why Pontiac needs a version of the Equinox & a minivan???! All this means fewer Pontiac sales and fewer dealers. But it will have an enhanced reputation, the ability to sell without rebates, and will still be derrivitives of other GM cars.

guionM

It goes beyond Zeta.

GM's expected earnings this year has been revised downward 80%! GM predicted a slow year earning 2 billion, now it's predicting a 2 billion loss. This doesn't include 4 billion to Fiat.

Cutting Zeta was done independent of GM's finances, and in fact seems to have been done before anyone knew how bad GM was going to do this year.


Buick has a visiously loyal customer base. Biggest by percentage at GM!

Saturn has "Import" credibility. It's the only brand GM can plausibly market against Toyota without spending decades waiting for the public to realize this.

Pontiac has little loyalty, and all it's products are sold in other showrooms.

For the record, I STILL DON'T BELIEVE GM IS GOING TO CLOSE DOWN AN ENTIRE DIVISION, AND I"VE HEARD NOTHING TO MAKE ME THINK DIFFERENTLY.

HOWEVER, I do think there's going to be a h*ll of alot of redundancy cut out of GM's product lines.

CaminoLS6

I've become heartily sick of all of this, so I'm going to make this one post and take a little break from most online forums for a bit.

In my mind, GM needs to do three things well - immediately.

1) Be bold, take the offensive, shock us with something really good-right now, roll the dice on an undeniably innovative and captivating car ( from any division) . Do it from available parts bin materials and do it so fast it makes the industries head spin.

2) DEFINE the brands instead of looking for the weakest link. Make each brand actually mean something distinct in the market. It's the only way. No overlap,and I mean Zero, needs to be the ultimate goal. No, I don';t mean no platform sharing - the devil and God are both in the details so make the detail matter.

3) For the first time in recent history run marketing like death is the punishment for failure -because it is.


So, there is my rant and now I'm off to try to fix some of my own problems . Seeya when I think I've made some progress.

90rocz

I hear you guionM, I just don't want to see them go the way Olds went, weaned down to nothing, then killed off. I agree, if it doesn't EXCITE it shouldn't be Pontiac! I was thinking maybe they could make the "Equinox & a minivan", "Sports Editions", remember the Dodge ESI's etc., slightly lower stance, handling packages, sports wheel/tire combo's, gages etc.... ..A well rounded line up for every lifestyle...
And we need commercials of people taking these things to FUN PLACES, like beaches, drive-ins, ball games, trips, site-seeing etc...to enhance the enjoyment of life...like a companion in fun...places that target demographics go to enjoy themselves...They need to "Endear" their cars back into the American hearts & lives....

NikiVee

Well as a loyal Pontiac owner, who currently owns 5 Pontiacs I disagree about Pontiac having little loyalty. Pontiac has a large following despite what you may say.

I drive everyday 60 miles on a major highway to work. I can assure you I see more Pontiacs on the road than Buicks or Saturns and sales confirm what I see on the road.

Sure I'm biased. So are chevy guys, buick guys, etc. I just would be pretty surprised if Pontiac got the axe. I think we will know what happens to Pontiac once sales figures come in after the Solstice and G6 coupe and convertible hit the market.

But I agree I want GM to succeed, I hope with Pontiac in it's lineup.

formula79

Cutting Pontiac would be a huge mistake IMO. I know tons of people who are Pontiac loyal. Pontiac just needs to give them cars they want. The GP needs a new front end and a little interior investment. Give it the interior out the G>Force concept and call it a day. The Bonneville needs to be replaced by a big V8 RWD BONNEVILLE. Replace the ****fire with a semi-cobalt. Make the 170HP engine standard. No guy wants to be seen in a 200 HP Oprah inspired vaginamobile G6. I thought the G6 concept was cool...but it has evalvolved into the ultimate chick car. The coupe even screams Solara (another chick car). Plus the mags who have tested the prototypes of the 240HP GTP didn't say find things. The electric steering is horrid in the Epsilon cars.

Hell...I even like my Pontiacs with scoops, wings, and body cladding. The G6 and Solstice seem soft for me. Pontiac's are aggressive.

dav305z

No, they should give the moey to Pontiac because it is their third best selling brand, has a better rep than both Buick and Saturn, and could easily be retooled to go after direct cometitors like Mazda and Nissan.

In contrast, Buick has a rather murky marketplace situation. It's supposed to compete with Lexus and upper level Toyota, but what exactly does Caddy and Saturn do? It also has a loyal, but dying market. Additionally, I would denifinately posit that Buick buyers are the ones loyal enough that they would simply go and buy another GM - just like most Olds buyers did. Chevy could really cover Buick rather easily.

I just don't see why Pontiac is getting the shaft. As for GM "studying" things, well, that's part of what gets GM into trouble. While GM says it's studying the viability of producing a big rwd sedan, Chrysler is selling them. GM's studies showed that there was no market for "green" cars - Prius is proving that wrong.

GM studies things so much that it appears as if they have stopped thinking.

HAZ-Matt

But if you wait a couple years, both of those guys will be dead.

eagleknight97

To me at least, it seems as if Saturn is the division that makes the LEAST sense. Originally brought about as a value priced entry buyer car, it has stayed that way its entire life. However, it is now supposed to magically jump over not only Chevy, but also Pontiac. I know GM has recently invested large chunks of change in Saturn, but it doesnt make any sense to me. I, along with many young adults, see Saturn as a cheap car you get when you need something semi reliable and dont have much money and dont want to worry about crap denting your body panels. I dont see how they think they can go from that to being more upscale than say an Impala or Grand Prix. And talk about product redundancy, who the heck are current Chevy Aveo's, Malibu's and Cobalt's supposed to appeal to? Probably CLOSE to the same market as most Saturns do. So why not just use Chevy to make QUALITY entry level cars, and axe Saturn. And instead of trying to make Saturn more upscale, just MAKE Pontiac more upscale and exciting!

RoMaD

I see a lot of "GM should restructure this" and "GM should market it this way". Guy touched on it a bit, but I'll take it about 10 steps farther: GM just needs to STFU and build some good cars, yesterday. All this "wait til you see what GM is going to have in xxx months" crap is getting old. Hell, it was old last year, and the year before that.

At the rate GM's going, we won't have to worry about a 5th gen, because there won't be a company to build it.

Darth Xed

I agree.

I think, if they absolutely HAVE to kill another brand, that BUICK buyers would be more willing to go buy a Saturn than Pontiac buyers would be.

I think there is unquestionably more Pontiac LOYAL buyers than there are Buick loyal buyers (no disrespect to classic Buick guys, but how many Grand National fans are buying current models from Buick's showroom?)... and even if I am wrong, Buick has the OLDEST demographic right now anyway, so a lot of that base, by nature, is going to die off quicker. Pontiac, on the other, has one of the younger demographics for buyers.

uluz28

Excellent post...I could not agree more!

I really hope some folks from GM read this message board an come across posts like this.

Jackass

I agree with you 100%. My point was that having "performance models for every model of car that GM makes kind of waters down the idea of Pontiac being a performance division.

Yes, Pontiac doesn't have anything yet to compete with the Cobalt SS but if (or when) they do come out with one it would be going after the same target market as the Cobalt.

Another thing is the Solstice. Yes, it makes a great halo car for Pontiac (to bring people into the showroom) but is it going to be a better "performing" car than the Saturn Sky. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the Solstice or the Sky, but they are redundant models. Does GM really need two roadsters. They are going after the same target market.

What happens if the GTO is really killed? What model from Pontiac is going to outperform the Camaro (if and when it comes out)?

Their is just too many brands.

Jackass

Another thing, isn't Ford kind of in the same situation?

Except their problems come from the fact that they have too many luxury or entry-luxury divisions. Let's see, they have Lincoln, Jaguar, Aston Martin, and Volvo. Oh, can't forget Mercury.