Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
05-26-2005, 07:20 AM
#16
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
It's a significant victory.
The 90 day survey is at an important point in the ownership path.
The love affair has worn off, the car should have some miles on it, and quirks or dissatisfiers should be showing up. It also does a good job in validating the status of the assembly process from a quality standpoint.
Generally, short-term durability failures have a lot to do with the assembly process, but their influence slowly dies off as the car ages until you get to more and more long-term durability failures which are influenced more by design flaws than assembly processes.
Consider it GM's "Guadalcanal" vs. the Japanese. The turning point. A new product has come in and seized an important foothold in a particular segment.
GM needs to "lather, rinse, repeat" for every vehicle in this general segment (Impala, Malibu, LaCrosse, Grand Prix), keep that part of the organization doing what it is doing while distributing the knowledge to other parts, and then move on to the next goal.
Now...
Notice the pattern from the importo-clones...
A few years ago:
"GM keeps getting creamed in the JD Powers surveys by the Japanese."
This year:
"Well, GM might be laying the smack down on the JD Powers IQ survey, but the real issue is long-term durability, GM sucks there and JD Powers is B.S."
Next few years:
"Well, GM might have passed everybody else in long-term durability, but long-term durability isn't that important, most people get rid of their cars after 3 years."
Etc...
Etc...
Etc...
As proven 50 years ago, the Japanese are not invincible. Americans are not categorically inferior in any respect relative to ANYONE. We're the best, we know it, and so does everybody else.
It's about damned time we started proving it again in the automobile industry, and this is an important step.
The 90 day survey is at an important point in the ownership path.
The love affair has worn off, the car should have some miles on it, and quirks or dissatisfiers should be showing up. It also does a good job in validating the status of the assembly process from a quality standpoint.
Generally, short-term durability failures have a lot to do with the assembly process, but their influence slowly dies off as the car ages until you get to more and more long-term durability failures which are influenced more by design flaws than assembly processes.
Consider it GM's "Guadalcanal" vs. the Japanese. The turning point. A new product has come in and seized an important foothold in a particular segment.
GM needs to "lather, rinse, repeat" for every vehicle in this general segment (Impala, Malibu, LaCrosse, Grand Prix), keep that part of the organization doing what it is doing while distributing the knowledge to other parts, and then move on to the next goal.
Now...
Notice the pattern from the importo-clones...
A few years ago:
"GM keeps getting creamed in the JD Powers surveys by the Japanese."
This year:
"Well, GM might be laying the smack down on the JD Powers IQ survey, but the real issue is long-term durability, GM sucks there and JD Powers is B.S."
Next few years:
"Well, GM might have passed everybody else in long-term durability, but long-term durability isn't that important, most people get rid of their cars after 3 years."
Etc...
Etc...
Etc...
As proven 50 years ago, the Japanese are not invincible. Americans are not categorically inferior in any respect relative to ANYONE. We're the best, we know it, and so does everybody else.
It's about damned time we started proving it again in the automobile industry, and this is an important step.
Last edited by PacerX; 05-26-2005 at 07:23 AM.
05-26-2005, 08:07 AM
#17
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 10,287
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
Originally Posted by Threxx
Wow... you took the words right out of my mouth. So what is this 90 days crap?!?
All I hear about now is GM moving up in the 90 day initial quality surveys! My god. Does everyone here sell their cars after 90 days? Pretty much every GM vehicle I've had experience with was fine off the dealership lot. It was long after that before it became a frustrating experience, but long before you would expect a modern day car to be ready to be 'retired'.
Anyhow... my point is that everything I've heard from this lounge in JD Power studies in 90 day initial defects. Show me past 90 days, show me something other than JD power. This is a start in a good direction for GM, but it's not the second coming... not yet.
All I hear about now is GM moving up in the 90 day initial quality surveys! My god. Does everyone here sell their cars after 90 days? Pretty much every GM vehicle I've had experience with was fine off the dealership lot. It was long after that before it became a frustrating experience, but long before you would expect a modern day car to be ready to be 'retired'.
Anyhow... my point is that everything I've heard from this lounge in JD Power studies in 90 day initial defects. Show me past 90 days, show me something other than JD power. This is a start in a good direction for GM, but it's not the second coming... not yet.
Most problems due to build quality so up within the first 90 days. For reliability you need to see what the car does over 6 years and 100,000. But by the time 6 years comes around that car is out of production and replaced with a newer model.
05-26-2005, 08:17 AM
#18
Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Shelbyville, IN
Posts: 2,043
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
Originally Posted by PacerX
As proven 50 years ago, the Japanese are not invincible. Americans are not categorically inferior in any respect relative to ANYONE. We're the best, we know it, and so does everybody else.
05-26-2005, 09:27 AM
#19
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Newhall, CA USA
Posts: 1,023
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
Agreed on getting this news out--and Pacer's comments about the ongoing denial of the facts by the import-addled masses.
Consider this is (typically) a pro-GM site.
If you want to see what the masses think of GM, go to:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/
Click on Automotive Insanity. Check out ANY thread that references American cars. And see how big the perception gap really is.
(This would also be a good exercise for any GM exec who thinks their position is anything other than re-entering the marketplace.)
Consider this is (typically) a pro-GM site.
If you want to see what the masses think of GM, go to:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/
Click on Automotive Insanity. Check out ANY thread that references American cars. And see how big the perception gap really is.
(This would also be a good exercise for any GM exec who thinks their position is anything other than re-entering the marketplace.)
05-26-2005, 09:44 AM
#20
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
Japanese invincibility?
Ladies and gentlemen, I present the Mitsubishi Zero, once considered the most deadly carrier aircraft in the air:
http://www.aviation-history.com/mitsubishi/zero.html
And, I now present you with one of the American responses, the deadliest propeller-driven fighter plane ever built, the Chance-Vought F4U-4 Corsair:
http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/f4u.html
Ladies and gentlemen, I present the Mitsubishi Zero, once considered the most deadly carrier aircraft in the air:
http://www.aviation-history.com/mitsubishi/zero.html
And, I now present you with one of the American responses, the deadliest propeller-driven fighter plane ever built, the Chance-Vought F4U-4 Corsair:
http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/f4u.html
05-26-2005, 10:07 AM
#21
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,252
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
LOL. The Zeke (Zero) lacked armor and self-sealing fuel tanks, and by the time the F4U Corsair came out, was no longer the fastest thing in the sky. However, in a one-on-one dogfight with equally-skilled pilots, the Zeke would outturn and outfight virtually anything in the sky - including the Corsair.
What the American's had starting in 1943 with the introduction of the F6F was a very competent, rugged, and fast airplane, superior training, superior numbers, and superior tactics (that took advantage of the airplane, training, and numbers). The F4U expanded on that even further.
By the end of WWII, the Japanese had some very, very advanced piston-driven fighters, but they did not have the resources to exploit them.
BTW...not really trying to be devil's advocate here, and I'm certainly not attempting to take up for Japanese industry.....but I am a WWII history buff.
Oh....trivia question for you...what American fighter shot down the most Japanese aircraft?
What the American's had starting in 1943 with the introduction of the F6F was a very competent, rugged, and fast airplane, superior training, superior numbers, and superior tactics (that took advantage of the airplane, training, and numbers). The F4U expanded on that even further.
By the end of WWII, the Japanese had some very, very advanced piston-driven fighters, but they did not have the resources to exploit them.
BTW...not really trying to be devil's advocate here, and I'm certainly not attempting to take up for Japanese industry.....but I am a WWII history buff.
Oh....trivia question for you...what American fighter shot down the most Japanese aircraft?
05-26-2005, 10:14 AM
#22
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
Originally Posted by Bob Cosby
Oh....trivia question for you...what American fighter shot down the most Japanese aircraft?
P-38.
I am also a WWII history buff.
05-26-2005, 10:34 AM
#23
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,252
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
Der forked-tail devil, as the German's called it. Richard Bong and Tommy McGuire both flew it to become our all-time leading aces (40 & 38 kills respectively).
It would be fun to continue to banter around this stuff, but I feel I've already hijacked the thread enough. Sorry Z28x.
Richard Bong and Tommy McGuire both flew it to become our all-time leading aces (40 & 38 kills respectively).It would be fun to continue to banter around this stuff, but I feel I've already hijacked the thread enough. Sorry Z28x.
05-26-2005, 10:44 AM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sarasota FL
Posts: 3,375
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
Charlie,
Regarding your ??? with the GXP, I thought the GXP was going to be a 2007 release? Am I wrong? My impression was that its right around the corner...
Regarding your ??? with the GXP, I thought the GXP was going to be a 2007 release? Am I wrong? My impression was that its right around the corner...
05-26-2005, 10:49 AM
#25
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
Originally Posted by Jason E
Charlie,
Regarding your ??? with the GXP, I thought the GXP was going to be a 2007 release? Am I wrong? My impression was that its right around the corner...
Regarding your ??? with the GXP, I thought the GXP was going to be a 2007 release? Am I wrong? My impression was that its right around the corner...
Jason, to be honest, I don't know whats going on with the GXP. AWD and HF V6 have been dropped from the program. Unless Pontiac pulls a HV SC V6 out of it's hat...I'm not even sure that there will even be one.
Anyone know anything?
05-26-2005, 10:52 AM
#26
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sarasota FL
Posts: 3,375
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
Originally Posted by Threxx
Wow... you took the words right out of my mouth. So what is this 90 days crap?!?
All I hear about now is GM moving up in the 90 day initial quality surveys! My god. Does everyone here sell their cars after 90 days? Pretty much every GM vehicle I've had experience with was fine off the dealership lot. It was long after that before it became a frustrating experience, but long before you would expect a modern day car to be ready to be 'retired'.
Anyhow... my point is that everything I've heard from this lounge in JD Power studies in 90 day initial defects. Show me past 90 days, show me something other than JD power. This is a start in a good direction for GM, but it's not the second coming... not yet.
All I hear about now is GM moving up in the 90 day initial quality surveys! My god. Does everyone here sell their cars after 90 days? Pretty much every GM vehicle I've had experience with was fine off the dealership lot. It was long after that before it became a frustrating experience, but long before you would expect a modern day car to be ready to be 'retired'.
Anyhow... my point is that everything I've heard from this lounge in JD Power studies in 90 day initial defects. Show me past 90 days, show me something other than JD power. This is a start in a good direction for GM, but it's not the second coming... not yet.
Is there a way to rate "reliability" to 100,000 miles? No. But we CAN rate 90 days...so we do...and GM did VERY well. You can say Toyota will traditionally hold up better over 100,000 miles of use, but from my own personal experience, I'd say "show me." My family's own experience with 100k mile GM products? A '95 GP with 102k traded in in 2002...one set of tires, one set of brakes, and one intake gasket under warranty. That was it. '01 GP GT, 57k miles on it...ZERO has been replaced on it. My own '01 GP GT has 53k on it...one steering rack has been replaced due to a clunk in it when I first bought it. Typical lease, could have been nothing more than typical abuse wacking potholes. Nothing else has gone wrong. '02 TrailBlazer LS, 76k miles...EVERYTHING wrong with it was discovered within, you got it, the FIRST NINETY DAYS OF OWNERSHIP. After May of '02, it never went back to the dealership again.
Meanwhile, my '89 Camaro was sold in 2002 with 96k on it, and other than a propensity for eating alternators, NOTHING aside from routine maintenance was ever done on the car. And that car was built in the "Road to Redemption" Years, as well. For the first 6 months of ownership it was a PITA, then it was smooth sailing.
So what the hell's my point? IMO, 90 days is a lot more significant than you think, and the long-term reliability of several GM products has been strong for awhile now. So lay off
05-26-2005, 10:59 AM
#27
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sarasota FL
Posts: 3,375
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
As for another "Road to Redemption" vehicle we owned, witness an '85 Olds Calais. Owned until 1993, traded with 125k on it. One set of tires. 2 sets of brakes. One transmission fluid change. A small amount of surface rust needed to be worked on after Year 5 (compare that to an '85 Accord 
), and the radio display broke after '92 or so. That was it. Hardly a car that deserved to be called a "typical '80s GM lemon."
Another car I owned I loved was a '95 Grand Am SE with a 3100. I bought it in May 2001 with 109k on it. The original owner traded it in to me on a new '02 Sunfire, and loved the Grand Am. She said she NEVER had a warranty claim on it...I verified this in the computer at work. It came in on trade with a blown head gasket. Why? She never changed the coolant!!!! Sludge buildup blocked one of the coolant ports and overheated it. So I threw on a new head gasket, replaced the RR wheel bearing, fixed the driver window regulator (she admitted to trying to roll it down on an icy day and snapped it), and drove it for another 15k miles before I sold it. Trouble-free. A/C blowing ice cold at an 80 MPH cruise, it was whisper quiet and got 27 MPG on a trip to ME. Currently, the girl I sold it to STILL has it with 165k miles on it, and has done...you guessed it...zero to it, other than fresh brakes and tires. Still has the original A/C charge, original exhaust, never had to have a timing belt replaced (say that about a Toyota), and she loves it. No rust, and runs as smooth as ever.
For every story you have about a great Toyota, I'll counter with a great GM all day if you'd like me to, Threxx
What the hell, while I'm at it...here's a few more interesting trades I've had...
'93 Bonneville SSEi, traded May 2003 with 286k. One transmission replaced at 180k. 2 water pumps replaced. That was it, other than routine maintenance. The original blower still worked perfect.
'94 Bonneville SE, traded July 2004 with 227k. Routine maintenance. I drove it for a couple days for the hell of it...what a car. The driver's seat was all flattened out and there were a few dash rattles, but nothing else was wrong. The owner cried when she traded it in...
'93 Grand Am SE. Remember what a "bomb" the Quad OHC was? Supposedly blowing head gaskets left and right? Not quite...176k on this one, and ran smooth as ever. I have also taken in on trade a '94 Grand Am Quad OHC I sold to my ex girlfriend with 103k on it in 2001...had 157k on it in late 2004 when it was totaled. Another '94 Grand Am Quad OHC I wholesaled with 141k on it in 2002...the person who bought it just traded it back in with 184k and was so happy with it she begged/borrowed/stole from wherever she could to afford an '03 Grand Am I sold her.
All of the above cars were of interest to me because of their age and mileage, so I went out of the way to ask about their reliability over the years. None of these cars ever had more than routine maintenance, other than the transmission in the Bonnie...with 180k on it, they weren't upset in the least
The theory the Americans are inferior in terms of long-term reliability died at least 10 years ago, IMO...
), and the radio display broke after '92 or so. That was it. Hardly a car that deserved to be called a "typical '80s GM lemon." Another car I owned I loved was a '95 Grand Am SE with a 3100. I bought it in May 2001 with 109k on it. The original owner traded it in to me on a new '02 Sunfire, and loved the Grand Am. She said she NEVER had a warranty claim on it...I verified this in the computer at work. It came in on trade with a blown head gasket. Why? She never changed the coolant!!!! Sludge buildup blocked one of the coolant ports and overheated it. So I threw on a new head gasket, replaced the RR wheel bearing, fixed the driver window regulator (she admitted to trying to roll it down on an icy day and snapped it), and drove it for another 15k miles before I sold it. Trouble-free. A/C blowing ice cold at an 80 MPH cruise, it was whisper quiet and got 27 MPG on a trip to ME. Currently, the girl I sold it to STILL has it with 165k miles on it, and has done...you guessed it...zero to it, other than fresh brakes and tires. Still has the original A/C charge, original exhaust, never had to have a timing belt replaced (say that about a Toyota
), and she loves it. No rust, and runs as smooth as ever.For every story you have about a great Toyota, I'll counter with a great GM all day if you'd like me to, Threxx
What the hell, while I'm at it...here's a few more interesting trades I've had...
'93 Bonneville SSEi, traded May 2003 with 286k. One transmission replaced at 180k. 2 water pumps replaced. That was it, other than routine maintenance. The original blower still worked perfect.
'94 Bonneville SE, traded July 2004 with 227k. Routine maintenance. I drove it for a couple days for the hell of it...what a car. The driver's seat was all flattened out and there were a few dash rattles, but nothing else was wrong. The owner cried when she traded it in...
'93 Grand Am SE. Remember what a "bomb" the Quad OHC was? Supposedly blowing head gaskets left and right? Not quite...176k on this one, and ran smooth as ever. I have also taken in on trade a '94 Grand Am Quad OHC I sold to my ex girlfriend with 103k on it in 2001...had 157k on it in late 2004 when it was totaled. Another '94 Grand Am Quad OHC I wholesaled with 141k on it in 2002...the person who bought it just traded it back in with 184k and was so happy with it she begged/borrowed/stole from wherever she could to afford an '03 Grand Am I sold her.
All of the above cars were of interest to me because of their age and mileage, so I went out of the way to ask about their reliability over the years. None of these cars ever had more than routine maintenance, other than the transmission in the Bonnie...with 180k on it, they weren't upset in the least
The theory the Americans are inferior in terms of long-term reliability died at least 10 years ago, IMO...
Last edited by Jason E; 05-26-2005 at 11:07 AM.
05-26-2005, 11:18 AM
#28
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
Originally Posted by Bob Cosby
LOL. The Zeke (Zero) lacked armor and self-sealing fuel tanks, and by the time the F4U Corsair came out, was no longer the fastest thing in the sky. However, in a one-on-one dogfight with equally-skilled pilots, the Zeke would outturn and outfight virtually anything in the sky - including the Corsair.
What the American's had starting in 1943 with the introduction of the F6F was a very competent, rugged, and fast airplane, superior training, superior numbers, and superior tactics (that took advantage of the airplane, training, and numbers). The F4U expanded on that even further.
By the end of WWII, the Japanese had some very, very advanced piston-driven fighters, but they did not have the resources to exploit them.
BTW...not really trying to be devil's advocate here, and I'm certainly not attempting to take up for Japanese industry.....but I am a WWII history buff.
Oh....trivia question for you...what American fighter shot down the most Japanese aircraft?
What the American's had starting in 1943 with the introduction of the F6F was a very competent, rugged, and fast airplane, superior training, superior numbers, and superior tactics (that took advantage of the airplane, training, and numbers). The F4U expanded on that even further.
By the end of WWII, the Japanese had some very, very advanced piston-driven fighters, but they did not have the resources to exploit them.
BTW...not really trying to be devil's advocate here, and I'm certainly not attempting to take up for Japanese industry.....but I am a WWII history buff.
Oh....trivia question for you...what American fighter shot down the most Japanese aircraft?
That's just silly. I got a better idea. How's about you take the plane that turns really well and I get the plane that's faster, better armed, has a higher ceiling, and can dive away at will. Sound like a deal?
Screw that turning noise, Bub. If you ever get anywhere near my tail, I'm pushing everything in the cockpit forward, and SEEYALATERBYE!
The ability to dive away at will - the fighter pilot's ace in the hole.
Last edited by PacerX; 05-26-2005 at 11:27 AM.
05-26-2005, 11:21 AM
#29
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Memphis
Posts: 4,338
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
Originally Posted by Jason E
For every story you have about a great Toyota, I'll counter with a great GM all day if you'd like me to, Threxx
See where I'm going with this? I wasn't trying to start a "tell stories to promote GM and I'll tell stories to promote Toyota" war. That'd be downright pointless. I know the experiences I've had with GM vehicles, and I know the experiences I've had with Toyota vehicles. You know your experiences, too. But for either one of us that's an incredibly small survey or scope of vehicles compared to surveys like JD Power, Wards, CR, CG, and others take.As was already stated in this thread a few times by myself and others; 90 days is a measure of initial defects. Like things that weren't to spec off the assembly line. 90 months or so is when you see how long the manufacturer actually intended the car to last and/or how much time the engineers and accounting department put into making a durable automobile with durable materials and a durable design.
And yes, there are plenty of surveys that focus on that time frame. It is just as measurable as 90 days.
05-26-2005, 11:46 AM
#30
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sarasota FL
Posts: 3,375
Re: Pontiac G6 beats out Toyota Camry and Honda Accord in 2005 total quality.
Well, please point me to one of these surveys, as I'd be fascinated by it. And if you throw me a link to Consumer Reports, don't even bother with those biased little ***tards...
My Camaro supposedly has "poor" reliability, and yet in 8 years and 57,000 miles it has had one intake gasket added, one water pump, and one PS pump go bad. Not exactly perfect, but for an 8 year old car? I'm not complaining at all...
I understand your post regarding "Well, I saw this and that..." I am aware that was not your point, nor was it necessarily mine. What my point was is that the Americans DO make cars with reliability that can and do rival imports, even after the initial quality surveys end. If you've got some surveys you know of, throw them my way...they'd be an interesting read.
But if its any crap from Consumer Reports, screw it. Not interested. If it doesn't say Honda, Toyota or Lexus on it, they don't like it. Although, the Passat was a recommended buy for several years, and those things aren't any better from previous-gen Jettas, from what I've seen...
My Camaro supposedly has "poor" reliability, and yet in 8 years and 57,000 miles it has had one intake gasket added, one water pump, and one PS pump go bad. Not exactly perfect, but for an 8 year old car? I'm not complaining at all...
I understand your post regarding "Well, I saw this and that..." I am aware that was not your point, nor was it necessarily mine. What my point was is that the Americans DO make cars with reliability that can and do rival imports, even after the initial quality surveys end. If you've got some surveys you know of, throw them my way...they'd be an interesting read.
But if its any crap from Consumer Reports, screw it. Not interested. If it doesn't say Honda, Toyota or Lexus on it, they don't like it. Although, the Passat was a recommended buy for several years, and those things aren't any better from previous-gen Jettas, from what I've seen...