Wow, so much stereotypical talk from people never having worked in the UAW on a UAW assembly line....I can understand quetioning things, but taking such firm stands on "he said, she said, dad said, media says.." it's kinda sickening.
And yes, Honda where I live pays just slightly MORE than what I make, so that argument is moot. But I wager, if it wasn't for the UAW, Honda would only pay what the other Manufacturer's pay, mostly to stave off Unions.

Why don't people want to see a "working man" earn a decent living for his family???
His labor isn't as good as someone who has a degree???
Why are you mad b/c someone else makes what you make with a degree, different fields require different training and education.
Are their jobs any less demanding?? Or just demanding in different ways??

Some of them put off their careers to raise families, which requires a lot of time invested. For this they are thought less of, looked down on, and considered expendable.(Me being one, I was an assistant to engineers, flying all over the country, taking classes and moving up...but my kids are MORE IMPORTANT, so I found a position that allowed me to support them and spend time personally raising them...does that make me a bad person?
I'll tell you what, I feel I earn my money NOW more than when I was in engineering...especially every morning. I hate getting older....

We need to be a little more careful how we judge, especially when we don't know all the facts and have abbrigated views.

Threxx, how can you talk about Unions?...
My dad made only roughly $34K/yr before he died...but he loved his job, lots of blood, sweat and tears, but built things left as a legacy, made with pride.

Do most of you realize that the "Companies" fit the descriptions you give about Unions as well.

 

Unlike the company I work for, which is typical of western business culture IMHO, Japanese companies will continue to keep Japanese in jobs... as long as the company is making a profit. The reason I say that is that I've rarely heard any negative press from Japanese auto makers about redundancies both in their domestic market and overseas operations.

Back to the company I work for - $2.5 AUD billion profit last year and increasingly making record profits - will outsource its work to an Indian company. Yes, I will make way for an Indian worker. I'd like to know how many Japanese companies would do the same IFF profitable?

 

Uh, guys, you all do realize that there's the JAW - Japanese Auto Workers union - as well, right? That means we're not looking at a strict unions-are-good/unions-are-bad discussion. JAW workers are paid very well. They also crank out a lot of work for that money. Japanese management and labor get along together extremely well, with management understanding that well-paid workers are good for the economy, and labor being very willing to adapt new technology and manufacturing techniques. Recall that lean manufacturing was born in Japan and embraced by their labor unions.

The Japanese, in general, have embraced the idea of making goods where they're sold. I feel that's been a big part of their success. It has all sort of advantages, from minimized impact of currency exchange rate fluctuations to improved supply-chain logistics to the warm fuzzy that consumers get when buying a competitively-priced high-quality product that's produced in their own country.

 

My lean training always credited Henry Ford with implementing the lean process improvement idea. It wasn't until the 70's that Toyota adopted it and improved on certain things. (Yes, we tried to use lean in The Marine Corps for our aviation structural and compsite repair shop. See we do try to save some of your tax dollars. Are you guys proud of us?)

The only problems I have with the union is that they are not interested in what is best for the company that makes what they do possible. I see the unions as willing to take in a time of success, and not willing to give back in a time of need by the companies they represent. How is that good for anyone? I could see if the health care plans were just average compared to the rest of the working force, and then GM wanted them to pay more out of pocket. But when the health care is the way it is now and they are not willing budge. I don't have any respect for that.

 

You're right, UAW and CAW workers bargained rich contracts when the corporations made record profits but it's hard to tell someone that they have to take a pay cut especially when workers work twice as hard than let's say 10 years ago. They'll say why should we be penalized because you've designed products that the people want? Especially since we're busting our a$$es like never before??? The automaker is not blame free. Chrysler has the same issues as GM but is making money. Product means everything.

It's my understanding that the CAW has already been informed about some cuts in benefits such as healthcare and they should accept it....even though healthcare is not a big issue north of the border. The UAW will follow.

Todays unions don't prevent the big3 from operating efficiently, just look at the job loses in the past 2 contracts. How many times have they been on strike? 0

The company will usually give raises to the workers so that in return they'll outsource hundreds of jobs and close plants. Workers ratify the contracts because the majority just look out for themselves and appreciate the increase in pay.

BTW, when UAW and CAW reps say they won't budge, that's just part of the bargaining process.....just like GM saying they'll layoff 25000 people.

 

While I agree with everything you said, I think that the Japanese automakers have a lot more of their parts coming from China while the big 3 have a majority of their parts built here in NA.

Nissan is one of the worst one for that.

 

so why isnt there a easy medium process, why do so many have to lose their jobs...?

 

Pretty narrow minded view, don't you think?

Unions have been invaluable in keeping automakers (and businesses in general) in check over the years.

There are some areas where unions are out of control (here in San Francisco, hotel unions I feel should be disbanded), but in general, the UAW has come a long long way since the 1970s. I still don't like some of their tactics in trying to force expansion to factories that clearly don't want them, but when you realize that the UAW is something like 1/3 the membership it was in their heyday, I can understand them. Not agree, but understand. Besides, nowadays, they are smart enough to know if they push too hard, machines and automation are a far greater threat to them shipping their jobs to Mexico or China.

I'll still call Unions to the mat when I feel they are wrong about something, but in general I have nothing bad to say about them. Giving them a blanket condemnation is pretty shallow.

Japanese do have extensive outsourcing, but the companies they outsource to tend to be Japanese, and tend to be monopolies.

 

China? That's news to me?

Btw, if Nissan is the worst offender, it's probably because a westerner took charge of the company to lead it out of the quagmire. Anyone remember Carlos Ghosn?

 

We are proud of you.. (BTW, do some research on D.U. munitions, we're contaminating every place we "shell", permanently, and our soldiers are getting sick too...just a heads up.)
But, you are only seeing ONE side of the story, the UAW does give a LOT! And has for several years now, every since the economy went to the toilet..
Health care is just the next chip on the poker table, and we've given up a lot of ground there as well.
My Dr. PCP visits cost $59, my Co-Pay this year is $55, next year goes to $65. ("point of service" concession...the highest in my area!) Same type of increases on my perscription card.
We had our FIRST real raise in hourly wage this year, first in nearly 10 years!!(per contract)
We've agreed to a 2-tier wage system.
We allow a LOT of job losses through attrition, now.
Outsourced the "good jobs", sub-assembly jobs to companies paying less than 1/2 our pay...BTW the quality of parts and assemblies has fallen sharply.
(My plant went from 5,500 workers to 1,200 in a little over 6 years...NOT b/c of automation, but attritioned jobs that are now outsourced.)
We run almost TWICE as many units as in previous years, A PAY CUT IN ANYONES BOOK.
(Just ask a mechanic to do twice the repairs on your car for the same price and watch his expression...)

Yes, Unions have their problems, but so do the Companies...
And as said, DON'T put much thought into the Bargaining "Talk" about issues, we don't believe much until we see it happen...

 

One thought, on the orginal thread question.

The Japanese company I worked for did outsource, but the held their suppliers to the highest standards. They had a really agressive Quality Assurance program...and didn't back down much.(Which I was a part of, using Kaisen and ISO 9001(then)we were certified by a firm out of Dublin Ireland, WE RETURNED MANY A SHIPMENT OF SUBSTANDARD PARTS...)

Where I work now, we had an issue on my job where incoming product was slightly damaged, and fit was poor...
I told the supervisor, he called in the supplier Rep, the Rep basically told us.."We tried to sell you a better part but, Your company wanted the cheapest part we could give them that would work, so you're gonna have to DEAL WITH IT !....(I fear the Japanese company would've ended it's relationship there abruptly...

 

Let's see now... 10 years ago... GM nearly closed their doors. It was the most inefficient company of the big 3... the Japanese were miles ahead in productivity. GM has now bridged that gap... such is the pace of change. And change is the operative word here... GM is downsizing because it needs to make money. There will be casualties as a result of the sizeable restructure that must take place. If GM were making squillions and taking more away from UAW employees, I know I would cry foul. But GM is not in a healthy financial position right now and certain groups must realise that and concede some ground. Both GM and the UAW must pull together, not against each other, during this difficult period because without GM there will be no UAW.

Just my 2c.

 

That's called productivity. It allows the company to continue to pay the same wage while raw materials, energy, and other costs increase. It also allows the company to generate profits under these circumstances as well as return some to investors. You're mechanic analagy is a little over simplified, because the company just doesn't say "do double the work". They make changes and investments in the process to reduce waste. I'm guessing you still work the same hours?

At any rate, productivity affects more than just blue collar workers, and it's one of the reasons we have the buying power that we do today.

 

Just an aside and an FYI.....

Nobody "shells" with DU (depleted uranium), rounds. DU has extremely high density, so is used in armor piercing munitions. They are in effect, penetrator rounds, so they are fired at specific targets - rather than used to "shell".

At any rate, the DoD is already replacing DU wuth tungsten tipped munitions.

 

Funny, that's about exactly opposite of the current trend. The Big 3 continue to source more parts overseas (oops, excuse me - "low labor cost market"), while the Asian transplants are brings more work into the US (and that work is predominately coming from Japan).

Don't get me wrong, there's interest in Chinese parts by every auto maker on the planet, but remind me again which automaker is selling vehicles in the US with Chinese-built engines?