The one part of aesthetics that I do get is the truly awful interior build quality (panel fits in particular) the C6's that I have seen up close suffer from.

I am at a loss as to the systemic issues within GM's engineering and styling communities that keep allowing this to happen... over and over again, car after car.

Fields of grey plastic don't bother me, since the manner in which materials, finishes and colors interact to make an attractive interior is a subset of knowledge I am wholly incapable of grasping. Fits, on the other hand, ARE something I can take hold of.

I am convinced at this point that the issues within GM which allow bad interior panel fits are systemic within the engineering, styling and supply communities. GM has not put forward the proper effort to manage interior design and engineering in a manner that ensures a favorable outcome regarding these issues.

Firsthand knowledge I do have concerning GM:

1) Build objectives either do not exist, or are not paid enough attention to. I know from experience that senior engineers and managers at General Motors do not place nearly enough emphasis on them, and do not understand their import or implementation.

2) Datum schemes currently selected for GD&T do not support a good build. The application of GD&T is relatively arbitrary - to the point that GM has opted to deviate on their own from accepted standard practice. While GM engineers understand GD&T in theoretical terms and can follow the rules of thumb, they do not yet seem capable of turning that knowledge into a coherent system to ensure good fits.

3) The fox is watching the henhouse. The supply base DOES NOT carry the concerns of the end customer like good fits in the interior as their highest priority. Right now, they're worried about survival as the bankruptcies are striking too many suppliers too quickly in the industry.

4) Because of continual cost pressure, the expertise available in the supply base is not adequate to the task. Young designers and engineers are being assigned jobs that they are not really capable of yet. That is not to say that they are dumb, but they ARE inexperienced and relatively poorly led. Couple that with the fact that GM really doesn't engineer a whole lot beyond powertrains and body structures and you have a set of conditions that cause a lack of experience-won knowledge that can avoid mistakes. Why do I say this? Simply because the SAME mistakes keep happening over and over. I can find no other explanation.

5) It seems that a fix to an issue after the fact is looked upon as a higher good than doing the job right in the first place. Why do I say this? Because it keeps on happening...

6) The economic conditions that accept a lower cost in the face of an ugly build condition need to change. This is truly a monumental task. The industry has struggled for years to take something as quantifiable as cost vs. mass and assign an accurate business model to it. Something as difficult to define as good fit vs. poor fit and the end cost associated with having a poor fit in light of the monetary impact is an awesomely difficult task... but one that must be undertaken.

Here's the cold hard fact:

I know how to fix this. I'd just like the chance to make my case to someone who will consider it, even if only in passing.

 

For a real-world comparision of two cars I have lived with a while now... our 2004 GTO and our 2004 Grand Prix GTP... I can say I am scared as to what will happen with the next GTO's interior, assuming it becomes a comporate GM interior with part-bin pieces...

The quality and build of my GTO's interior is so far above anything I have had from GM in the past that it is scary.

The Grand Prix, on the other hand, is a joke. It's laid out nice enough, but the fitment and materials are just terrible. Interesting ly enough I think both of our Monte Carlo's were much better than the Grand Prix, though easily short of the GTO as well.

From the hollow, thin, hard plastic material used on the console and around the gauges, to the rubbermaid like dash board, to the terrible, uncomfortable seats, to the steering wheel... it's very disappointing.

I'll compare just the steering wheel of the GTO vs the Grand Prix:

The GTO's steering wheel is a beautiful 4-spoke design. The leather is pleasant to the touch, perferated on the top and bottom. The satin nickel spoke are tight, and have ZERO play in them... super tight construction. The radio buttons are a quality plastic that is pleasing to the touch as well. They don't flex or wobble. The center logo is a nice finish, looks like high-quality. Even the smallest detail is addressed. Like the color co-ordinated blue stitching used to match the rest of the car!

Now, the Grand Prix's wheel looks nice enough, but when you touch it, the leather feels cheap, like it's squirrel leather or something. The satin nickel spokes are clearly painted plastic that flex and groan if you put any pressure on them. The radio button are not bad, but they do have a bit of play in them. The center "GP" logo looks like a cheap decal. The material of plastic that the airbag is contained in feel like more "rubbermaid" material...

I can make a list of just about every interior component between the GTO and the Grand Prix, and just rip the Grand Prix a new one on every issue...

 

The GTO is the perfect example of how to do an interior right I also am nervous for the next GTO.

 

Fit and finish are the least of my concerns ...at least get it functional.

Fold down the back seat in a GMC Envoy and in a Nissan Murano, compare the ease of operation and the utility of the space provided.

The only GM I'm aware of that gets the folding back seat right is the Pontiac Vibe (aka Toyota Matrix).

Another item, when riding shotgun I like to keep my legs in front of me ...can't do that in an Envoy.

 

Good post! Once someone get's into a car the first thing they notice is the fit and finish. Certainly it's tie breaker for some looking for 'nice transportation'. I tend to be willing to overlook a less than stellar interior in favor of powertrain and performance, but this is clearly not the mindset of most car buyers.

How do Ford's new interiors stand up? E.g. the new F150 and Mustang - I've yet to sit in either of these.

 

i've been in an F-150 that my uncle owns

Have you seen the "quiet interior" commercials for it? It really is like that. The leather is nicer than my Camaro, which is saying somethng for a TRUCK. The front dash is pretty nice, I wasn't in the truck long, but I got the impression that it was of high quality.

 

I know what you mean. IMO, GTO has the best interior in GM's NA stable.
Better than C6, better than CTS, better than STS.

Don't know if the next one will be as good....certainly won't be better.

 

The F150 feels expensive when you sit inside it, especially the upper models. There are still vestiges of "Made In America" cheap plastic feel to the vent ducts, but overall, it's a far and away different league than any of it's competitors, including Japanese owned brands.

The Mustang is actually too solid inside. everything is very firm and very quiet. You also feel Ford gave the Mustang a quality interior by keeping frills to a minimum, while the GTO's interior is such high quality, it seems Holden wasn't scared to give life to the interior.

i think it's a near guarantee that the next GTO interior won't be as good as the current one, but I think it might measure up to Mustang's.

 

Baloney, pure and concentrated in form. I have a lot of respect for the GTO, especially as compared to my old-school LT1 Formula. But the GTO interior is at best on a par with the 2004+ GP interior, and in some aspects lags the GP. It appears you've included aspects of what I call 'quality of design' (mentioning how the radio buttons on the GP steering wheel have flex to them for example) and 'quality of manufacture' such as the fit and finish level as made in reality. I can list several of each area where the GP at least matches, and in some cases bests, that of the GTO (which I test drove on two occasions):

Design -

1. Door hinges on the GP are simply superior. They glide open on rollers, as opposed to the import-style 'sliding pinschers' which provide damping on the GTO.
2. The door pulls on the GP are more prominent and easier to find in the dark (not to mention the power lock and window buttons).
3. Steering wheel buttons - OF COURSE they have some compliance. It's called tactile feedback. And IMHO it has a higher quality feel than the buttons on the GTO.
4. RDS Stereo display is much easier to read on the GP - - more tolerant of wide variation in lighting and the characters are larger. Buttons on head unit are easily confused while driving on the GTO due to their small and similar sizes/shapes... same is not generally true on the GP.
5. Cruise control is more intuitive and positive on the GP.
6. Power seats move quicker in the GP. This matters a LOT on the GTO since the seats very effectively block access to the rear seat when moved back.
7. Steering wheel on the GP has palm swells like those on F1 race cars, GTO does not. These help the driver remain oriented in the dark and in extreme maneuvering.
8. Seats on the GP are top-notch. Very supportive and versatile, but not difficult at ingress/egress. GTO has great seats but not quite as good as the GP's IMHO.
9. Both cars have Driver Information Centers. The GP's is far easier to learn and operate as well as see under a wide variety of lighting and glare... plus offers additional functions like transmission fluid temperature.
10. One word: HUD.

Manufacture -

1. I was not massively impressed with the GTO interior panel fit and finish. Better than my LT1 Formula without a doubt, but only on a par with the GP.
2. Leather in the GTO is rough. Leather in the GP is fine, smooth and soft, more like that of a Buick. The leather in the GP made a marked turn for the better in 2004.
3. Movement of the HVAC dials on the GTO feels cheap and sloppy like a toy, has a lot of loose movement and hysteresis. But movement of HVAC ***** on the GP is quiet and sure.

Overall I am very satisfied with the interior on my new Prix.

 

I just sat in a G6 V6 and the dash was nice but that it. the steering wheel felt like the ones in a late 90s Chevy pick up. The seats were of the same quality as my gradfathers old 85 tercel and so forth.

 

I sat in a new G6, and it had a very nice interior. Nice sleek and stylish design, quality materials(not as good as a Honda Accord though). Then I noticed that the passenger side window switch was misaligned with the door trim. It was really obvious and quite ugly, considering the gap was about a 1/4" I wouldn't have bought that particular G6 simply for that reason.


Also, there is no comparison to the Grand Prix and GTO's interior. All of the plastics in the GP seem hollow and cheap when compared to the GTO. The Grand Prix dash looks terribly busy, with way too many details, shapes, vents, and buttons. The GTO looks sleek, elegent and downright simple by comparison. Also, I liked the GTO seats a lot more than the GP's.

 

First, there ARE issues I'd like to see addressed in the GTO interior, but on a scale of 1 to 10, if GTO's interior is a 9. Grand Prix's ais a -46.

I OWN both cars... I KNOW what they are like.


************************************************** *******
Baloney, pure and concentrated in form. I have a lot of respect for the GTO, especially as compared to my old-school LT1 Formula. But the GTO interior is at best on a par with the 2004+ GP interior, and in some aspects lags the GP. It appears you've included aspects of what I call 'quality of design' (mentioning how the radio buttons on the GP steering wheel have flex to them for example) and 'quality of manufacture' such as the fit and finish level as made in reality. I can list several of each area where the GP at least matches, and in some cases bests, that of the GTO (which I test drove on two occasions):

Design -

1. Door hinges on the GP are simply superior. They glide open on rollers, as opposed to the import-style 'sliding pinschers' which provide damping on the GTO.

>>>> No noticable difference in functionality.

2. The door pulls on the GP are more prominent and easier to find in the dark (not to mention the power lock and window buttons).

>>>> Door pulls on the Grand Prix feel like they are made by Rubbermaid. They flex when pulled on. GTO's are solid and feel much better. The power window buttons are in the center console, and there is no need for a cluttering-up power lock button, because if the lock lever will lock and/or unlock the other side as needed. Therefore it acts as a lever AND a button.

3. Steering wheel buttons - OF COURSE they have some compliance. It's called tactile feedback. And IMHO it has a higher quality feel than the buttons on the GTO.

>>>> This makes no sense. WHY would I want the buttons to flex and squeak??? The GTO's buttons have ZERO wobble to them.

4. RDS Stereo display is much easier to read on the GP - - more tolerant of wide variation in lighting and the characters are larger. Buttons on head unit are easily confused while driving on the GTO due to their small and similar sizes/shapes... same is not generally true on the GP.

>>>> The radio is one area where the GTO COULD have improved. The buttons are a bit harder to find at times. However, it LOOKS nicer, and it FEELS nicer. As for the lighting... you are DEAD wrong. The GTO has a bigger display. Also, GTO duplicates radio information in the D.I.C. in the gauge cluster. A nice intergration feature.

5. Cruise control is more intuitive and positive on the GP.

>>>> Um.... how can a cruise control be more "intuitive"? They both do exactly the same thing. I have no real issue with either setup.

6. Power seats move quicker in the GP. This matters a LOT on the GTO since the seats very effectively block access to the rear seat when moved back.

>>>> I've noticed no difference in seat speeds.... I suppose I could go measure the distance each can travel and time them... but that would be pointless. This is a non-issue. Of course, the actual SEATS are an issue... compare GM's greatest seats ever (GTO) to the cardboard box-like Grand Prix seats... My back hurts after driving more than 20 minutes in the Grand Prix.

7. Steering wheel on the GP has palm swells like those on F1 race cars, GTO does not. These help the driver remain oriented in the dark and in extreme maneuvering.

>>>> I'd much rather touch the high quality, thick GTO steering wheel than the cheap feeling Grand Prix steering wheel.

8. Seats on the GP are top-notch. Very supportive and versatile, but not difficult at ingress/egress. GTO has great seats but not quite as good as the GP's IMHO.

>>>> This statement alone is enough to dismiss your entire post.... you are so off the mark on this that I can't even think of anything to say. You could not be more wrong.

9. Both cars have Driver Information Centers. The GP's is far easier to learn and operate as well as see under a wide variety of lighting and glare... plus offers additional functions like transmission fluid temperature.

>>>> Again, TOTALLY wrong. GTO's DIC is simple, has 3 "pods" to give more information at a given time... the only thing I'd like to see is seperate control of each pod. The Grand Prix's DIC is a fumbling mess of buttons that you have to play around with to get what you want. Again... you are way off base here.

10. One word: HUD.

>>>> Hard to say Grand Prix's HUS is better than GTO's because GTO doesn't offer it. I dont really care for HUD, but many do... One other shortfall of GTO is that it could offer more equipment as options... of course, this is not a quality or materials issue, so I don't knwo why you are bringing it up.

Manufacture -

1. I was not massively impressed with the GTO interior panel fit and finish. Better than my LT1 Formula without a doubt, but only on a par with the GP.

>>>> Again, statements liek this show you have no real experience comparing these two cars interiors. It is night and day. Pure and simple.


2. Leather in the GTO is rough. Leather in the GP is fine, smooth and soft, more like that of a Buick. The leather in the GP made a marked turn for the better in 2004.

>>>> GTO's leather is incredible! It's like comparing fine lamb skin to leather made from rat pelts in the Grand Prix.

3. Movement of the HVAC dials on the GTO feels cheap and sloppy like a toy, has a lot of loose movement and hysteresis. But movement of HVAC ***** on the GP is quiet and sure.

>>>> I'll give this one... the movement of the HOT/COLD button is a bit awkward... Layout and materials used are superior in touch and feel , but the actual movement is a bit odd. OK, I'll give you this one for the movement, but the actual feel of quality for the buttton itself still goes to the GTO.

Overall I am very satisfied with the interior on my new Prix.

>>>> We most certainly are not. Add to the list the headliner that moves when you open the sunglass holder (we have no sunroof), the infamous "headlight wobble" that you can see on a lot of Grand Prix's on the road (and we have it too), the ultra cheap hard, thin plastic that covers the center stack and the dash vent on the driver side by the door and wraps the gauge cluster is hideous. Go ahead and actually TOUCH it... better yet, flick the guage surround with your finger, and hear the thin cheap plastic echo from being thin, and hollow. Add to that a list of so many other things, and I can say that this is one of the worst QUALITY OF MATERIAL interiors I have owned. The layout is just fine... but the materials are junk.

 

I agree on this, my GP's interior has some foibles too. To me though the two cars' interiors are nearly equal.
This gives you an advantage in evaluating a few specific things, such as durability of interior fabrics and how seats treat you on long trips. Other than that though - I have driven a 2004 GTO and I have an 05 GP so I feel I can make some comparisons too. And speaking of long trips - I've hopped out of my GP after driving several hours and had no disappointments.
I'm surprised you don't notice the difference in the hinges. There's quite a noticeable difference IMHO. The GP has a gliding, rolling, luxurious feel and the GTO does not.
I haven't experienced the flexing door pulls at all. They are thick solid metal... how could they flex at all?
Mine don't squeak. Do yours? If so that's pretty strange. I traded in my 04 CompG (25k miles) on my 05. NO squeaks in the buttons of either car. Did you dream this?
Guess we'll have to differ on this. I believe the GTO's stereo display has poor contrast in marginal lighting conditions such as late or early in the day when you *almost* need to have headlights on. It works good in direct sunlight and at night. The GP's display works good or great under ALL conditions. And funny you should mention integration. That is one reason I brought up the HUD on the Prix. Some key info you see in your display right below the speedo (eg, FM frequency) is shown right in my HUD. Vastly superior IMO for helping a driver focus on the road, compared to looking down below the speedo. The Prix is in fact more heavily optioned... but when the GTO tries to emulate some features like the HUD, while such things are useful, they are still a mediocre substitute for the corresponding feature in the GP.
The cruise control on the GP is more positive in operation. There are no dual function motions, IE, stalk movements that could have ambiguous results depending on the current state of the cruise.
Not to me... I'll be honest -- I wanted a GTO when I was shopping for the GP I got. The wifey ended up trumping me ("NO coupes!"); and one reason was, she knew about the limited rear-seat access on the GTO. The GTO cries out for a one-button "express-forward" function on the front seats. Maybe they're not slower than those on the GP. But it will sure seem that way for parents standing there in the rain or snow waiting to run the seat forward for one of their tykes.
I'm still not very clear on what is cheaper on the GP wheel. The palm swells feel great to me (BTW they increase road feel and control since you have more to grab) and the leather in fact feels better to me than that on the GTO's wheel. Whatever...
Eh? I said at least one issue I have with the GTO's seats -- ingress/egress. I bump my head getting out (amazingly, this does not happen on my Firebird). I've said there is a lot to like about the GTO seats; the same is true though IMHO for the seats on the GP. Dismiss whatever you like... no one's forcing you to read my opinions.
I don't understand how anyone could find the GP's DIC a fumbling mess of buttons - again whatever. It's as simple as pie.
Neither of us has seen the specific cars (VIN's I mean) on which the other person is basing these opinions. All I know is what I saw on the two GTO's I drove and a couple others I sat in at dealers. And yes I did find some flaws. As I said, nothing like on my LT1 formula... but flaws nonetheless. Things like loose edges on the fabric of the color-coded door inserts and slightly mismatched gaps at panel junctions. Nothing terribly different than the kinds of foibles you might see on the Prix... but I'd say they are on a par overall between the two cars. Just my $.02
No, it's not. All you are doing now is degrading your own credibility on the subject. Do you even have leather seats on the Prix you own? Really, rat pelts? The GTO's leather is alright and is softer than the leather was on my 99 Formula. But the wrinkly surface looks cheap while in contrast, the smooth leather on the Prix looks and feels more expensive.
Not sure what this has to do with the interior. But anyway, dealers have a kit which fixes this for free -- and all 05's including mine have the fix built in.
Well I do agree it could benefit from a smoother texture to make it more classy. But I have no issue with its thickness ( ) and let's be realistic - what other material besides some kind of polymers would you suggest? Solid wood like the 1920's? Or painted steel from the 1950's? The 2005 Accord also has a hard plastic console... I suppose that's no good either

Seriously. Both the GTO and the GP have very nice interiors compared to what GM was churning out in the 1990's. Maybe we should leave it at that.

 

[QUOTE=AronZ28]I sat in a new G6, and it had a very nice interior. Nice sleek and stylish design, quality materials(not as good as a Honda Accord though).


I want to know just what the heck these Japanese cars are using for plastics and other materials that make people think they are sooo much better than any other US auto maker. Its all quality perception now. We have been told and read for so long that japanese cars are superior, that Americans hate American made cars now. If there really is a difference, why cant GM use some of these holy japanese interior materials also?

 

[QUOTE=IMPALA64]Touch the top panel on Cobalt / G6 and then touch the top panel on VW Jetta, Accord, or Mazda6. American cars use hard plastic, that actually is hollow inside. Just knock on it and you'll see. Foreign manufacturers use more spongy plastics and they're not hollow - much more pleasant to the feel. Cobalt is close in appearance with its top dash panel, but as soon as you realize what plastic it's made of, that about kills its quality, IMO (the quality of the plastic, not the whoel interior).