The one thing I seriously think the 5th gen needs...
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
Originally posted by guionM
Welcome to the site ADV1!
Bringing you up to speed, we've covered this subject alot. Typically someone posts the mid V8 idea under the assumption that it would save on insurence & appeal to youth, and though the idea of a mid-engine is generally supported by everyone here, the assumptions are completely wrong.
First, as redzed pointed out, it isn't the '70s & '80s anymore. Nissan has V6s that put out more horsepower than my LS1, and there are 4 cylinder engines today that have more horsepower than top powered Z28s from 1977 1/2 to 1985! That means a mid grade Camaro today should be a V6. Having a mid-grade V8 would be virturally useless because the power output would be too close to make it worthwhile.
But, you say, insurence would be lower That's completely false. Call up your insurence agent, and get quotes for a same year Z28 and the less powerful Mustang GT. For sh*ts & giggles, throw in a top drawer Mitsubishi Eclipse & Toyota Celica into the mix, and stand by
. The reason for the HIGHER insurence rates for the less powerful cars is that there are more claims on those cars. The reason for more claims is because more youth drive those other cars. It has very little to do with horsepower, and everything to do with the rate of accidents.
This brings up the next position, bringing in more youth. Youth (meaning male gearheads) today are attracted to the same thing youth has always been attracted to: Cool cars with a MASSIVE aftermarket business to personalize their cars. The 4th gen has been sold as a "complete" car, while Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, even Chrysler's Neon (let alone Mustang with their 4 enthusiast magazines) have been all about aftermarket.
Best resolution of the middle engine question IMHO (assuming the next Camaro is smaller and lighter than the 4th gen) is the Ecotech 4 cylinder (with the performance of Camaro's 3800 V6) as base engine, with huge aftermarket support behind it, while a V6 capable of at least LT1 performance serves as middle engine, while the V8 continues on top.
More than anything, what Camaro needs is NO throwaway models, as the 4th gen V6 is. The base model should be a well equipted model without the stripper connotation. The mid-grade should be a Grand Touring car, much like the old Camaro LT of the 70s (with a blisteringly quick V6) to carry the bulk of the sales, in addition to a Cobra quick V8.
Simply throwing a detuned V8 into the mix wouldn't work.
Welcome to the site ADV1!
Bringing you up to speed, we've covered this subject alot. Typically someone posts the mid V8 idea under the assumption that it would save on insurence & appeal to youth, and though the idea of a mid-engine is generally supported by everyone here, the assumptions are completely wrong.
First, as redzed pointed out, it isn't the '70s & '80s anymore. Nissan has V6s that put out more horsepower than my LS1, and there are 4 cylinder engines today that have more horsepower than top powered Z28s from 1977 1/2 to 1985! That means a mid grade Camaro today should be a V6. Having a mid-grade V8 would be virturally useless because the power output would be too close to make it worthwhile.
But, you say, insurence would be lower That's completely false. Call up your insurence agent, and get quotes for a same year Z28 and the less powerful Mustang GT. For sh*ts & giggles, throw in a top drawer Mitsubishi Eclipse & Toyota Celica into the mix, and stand by
. The reason for the HIGHER insurence rates for the less powerful cars is that there are more claims on those cars. The reason for more claims is because more youth drive those other cars. It has very little to do with horsepower, and everything to do with the rate of accidents.This brings up the next position, bringing in more youth. Youth (meaning male gearheads) today are attracted to the same thing youth has always been attracted to: Cool cars with a MASSIVE aftermarket business to personalize their cars. The 4th gen has been sold as a "complete" car, while Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, even Chrysler's Neon (let alone Mustang with their 4 enthusiast magazines) have been all about aftermarket.
Best resolution of the middle engine question IMHO (assuming the next Camaro is smaller and lighter than the 4th gen) is the Ecotech 4 cylinder (with the performance of Camaro's 3800 V6) as base engine, with huge aftermarket support behind it, while a V6 capable of at least LT1 performance serves as middle engine, while the V8 continues on top.
More than anything, what Camaro needs is NO throwaway models, as the 4th gen V6 is. The base model should be a well equipted model without the stripper connotation. The mid-grade should be a Grand Touring car, much like the old Camaro LT of the 70s (with a blisteringly quick V6) to carry the bulk of the sales, in addition to a Cobra quick V8.
Simply throwing a detuned V8 into the mix wouldn't work.
If Chevrolet is smart on this, the base model will be a 4 banger, with an available turbo option to suck in some of today's "Tuner" crowd.
However, as twisted and an illogical as it may seem, at least as everyone else has told me... I still say 'The one thing I seriously think the 5th gen needs...' is a Big Block!
Who cares if its practical.... I'd buy it!
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,647
From: At car shows and cruise nights!
OK then MOST agree. There NEEDS to be a real mid-range option for people that can't afford the top car or that DO NOT want the power of it. No 10HP difference and practically no handling difference. Each model needs reason and distinctivness. It has to be more like the 1st 3 Gens and a little how the M*stang is now managing it.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,647
From: At car shows and cruise nights!
Originally posted by jg95z28
I have to agree with guionM on this one. Let us not forget that by the time a 5th gen Camaro gets into production, Displacement on Demand will be in full swing. So there goes your fuel economy argument out the window.
If Chevrolet is smart on this, the base model will be a 4 banger, with an available turbo option to suck in some of today's "Tuner" crowd.
However, as twisted and an illogical as it may seem, at least as everyone else has told me... I still say 'The one thing I seriously think the 5th gen needs...' is a Big Block!
Who cares if its practical.... I'd buy it!
I have to agree with guionM on this one. Let us not forget that by the time a 5th gen Camaro gets into production, Displacement on Demand will be in full swing. So there goes your fuel economy argument out the window.
If Chevrolet is smart on this, the base model will be a 4 banger, with an available turbo option to suck in some of today's "Tuner" crowd.
However, as twisted and an illogical as it may seem, at least as everyone else has told me... I still say 'The one thing I seriously think the 5th gen needs...' is a Big Block!
Who cares if its practical.... I'd buy it!
Super Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,026
From: Japan
I still say the straight six too. Fuel economy, and plenty of power.
The biggest obstacle I can see with this engine being the most common powerplant for the F5 is people's perception of a straight 6 in an American sports car.
The biggest obstacle I can see with this engine being the most common powerplant for the F5 is people's perception of a straight 6 in an American sports car.
Banned
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,954
Originally posted by 95 Z-28 LT1
I still say the straight six too. Fuel economy, and plenty of power.
The biggest obstacle I can see with this engine being the most common powerplant for the F5 is people's perception of a straight 6 in an American sports car.
I still say the straight six too. Fuel economy, and plenty of power.
The biggest obstacle I can see with this engine being the most common powerplant for the F5 is people's perception of a straight 6 in an American sports car.
Once you've built a F5 Camaro around the inline-6, you have to consider that your top-of the line OHV V8 will be a far more compact engine. In short, you've just made a huge, fairly empty engine bay for the next Z28. I'd rather see a design built around the more compact, lighter V8. Smaller, cheaper and lighter is better than bringing back the straight six.
Super Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,026
From: Japan
Originally posted by redzed
The biggest obstacle would be packaging the 4.2 liter inline-6 in an existing passenger-car platform. This is a long, relatively tall engine - not problem in trucks, but not good for modern cars.
Once you've built a F5 Camaro around the inline-6, you have to consider that your top-of the line OHV V8 will be a far more compact engine. In short, you've just made a huge, fairly empty engine bay for the next Z28. I'd rather see a design built around the more compact, lighter V8. Smaller, cheaper and lighter is better than bringing back the straight six.
The biggest obstacle would be packaging the 4.2 liter inline-6 in an existing passenger-car platform. This is a long, relatively tall engine - not problem in trucks, but not good for modern cars.
Once you've built a F5 Camaro around the inline-6, you have to consider that your top-of the line OHV V8 will be a far more compact engine. In short, you've just made a huge, fairly empty engine bay for the next Z28. I'd rather see a design built around the more compact, lighter V8. Smaller, cheaper and lighter is better than bringing back the straight six.
I guess we'll never know until they try it, will we.
Also, there is nothing wrong with a huge empty engine bay in my book. Makes it a helluva lot easier to work on.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,597
From: oshawa,ontario,canada
Originally posted by 95 Z-28 LT1
I guess we'll never know until they try it, will we.
Also, there is nothing wrong with a huge empty engine bay in my book. Makes it a helluva lot easier to work on.
I guess we'll never know until they try it, will we.
Also, there is nothing wrong with a huge empty engine bay in my book. Makes it a helluva lot easier to work on.
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