ADV1

Is a middle of the line V8, all previous generations except the 4th gen had a smaller less output V8 that cost less than the top of the line unit. I believe and corect me if I'm wrong that part of the reason the 2nd gen and 3rd gen were so succesfull was because they offered such an option. Yes, some folks want a V6 and Yes ALOT of folks want that LS1 but what about those who can't afford the Z or the SS or the insurance for that matter but wouldn't be caught dead driving something that is supposed to inspire by the way of a V8 only to have the V6? (nothing against you V6 owners)

I think GM needs this option ability if they are to get back on track with a 5th gen. The Mustang has offered this option for years and it works. In fact one of the main reasons you here of people buying Mustangs is because they are more affordable not only to buy but to hop up as well. So maybe in the next generation you'll see a V6, a 5.3 and an LS1 or something to that tune...

Well, am I wrong? because if I am please tell me. I've never seemed to have time to post this Idea until now so...

IZ28

We've been over this time and time again. And we all agree.

redzed

Forget all of the rules that applied to 1970s and 1980s engineering. Today, a smaller displacement/lower output V8 option would offer no significant fuel economy or cost benefits. In the end, it would only increase engineering costs, and by the same token, make for a more expensive model range.

As far as insurance costs, there is no assurance that a lesser engine would yield lesser rates. Insurance rates are based on loss experience, something that has more to do with the people who drive a particular type of car than what the car is. Even assuming that your notion that "smaller engine=cheaper insurance," would the difference between a 285hp 5.3l V8 and the old 310hp 5.7l V8 be very great. I'd say we're fooling ourselves if we think that lesser performance equates to any benefit in the purchase and ownership of a 5th gen. V8 F-body.

In the end, the F2 and F3 were more successful in sales because the sports coupe market was much larger in the 1970s and '80s. Even the current Corvette cannot match the sales records set in the darkest days of the low quality, emissions choked C3. Buying prefernces have changed. If we want to look forward to a successful F5, we shouldn't be looking towards the dead past.

bigsteve7

Thats what I thought too, but the general consensus on the board is the more options the better.

30thZ286speed

I think thats what GM was trying to do with the 4th Gen. in the later years between the SS and Z28, even though there was a bigger difference in price than performance since they both used the same engine.
As far as the 5th Gen. goes it would be nice to see a middle performance model (Z28 or SS) with a quick reving 302 ci. LS1 V8 rated around 320hp - 350hp. And since the Corvette C6 is going to have 500hp, The top of the line 5th Gen. car can run around with 450hp - 475hp.

dust6928

put the inline 6 from the trailblazer/envoy in there and have a light weight motor with enough power to satisfy the need for a v8 but will provide an insurance rate that younger people can afford.

IZ28

Hmmmmph. If the market is different for sports/musclecars, I wonder how the M*stang is doing so good and destroyed the 4th Gen in sales. Amazing. I suppose the 4th Gens unpopularity and the C5's prices (and 4th Gen) had nothing to do with it.

bigsteve7

Image and price.

The Mustang is generally "cooler" and generally cheaper. Sure you can buy a Z28 Camaro for $24k, but it doenst even come with power windows. You can buy a Mustang GT with 17s, leather and a Mach 460 sound system wihtout breaking the $25k barrier sticker price. Sure you could get nicely equipped Camaros for that price if you worked a deal, but sticker price no way. The perferred option package with power etc. was somewhere between $1000-1500 if memory serves correctly. Most Z28s I've seen on lots stickered ~$26,500. I believe the V6 F-bodies were more expensive as well.

dust6928

and you can buy a flowmaster and hpipe so that you can sound like every other mustang on the road.

WJH'sFormula

I honestly see no point to a middle ground V8 in a 5th gen. Anything that keeps costs and complexity down is a bonus for a potential 5th gen.

IMO, the one and only thing the 5th gen must have is a suspension capable of keeping up with the engine...

CLEAN

My insurance agent hardly blinked when I went from a lo-po LO3 to my LS1...the factor is V8 or V6. So a midrange wouldn't offer much if any insurance advantage, and as has been posted, much of the hardware backing up the midrange would probably be rated for the top engine anyway, so it wouldn't even be all that much cheaper.

Without wanting to start up this argument again, I did a post a month or 2 ago basically saying that the last gen's Z28 was really more or less a "V8 optioned Camaro". Most of us agreed that the model could have been more distinctive if it had more Z28 specific parts on it. Granted it had recalibrated suspension, braking, drivetrain, speedo, exhaust and all, but so did my 92 RS w/ the V8 option...and I was nowhere near a Z28 equivalent from a performance or visual point of view.

But assuming that there would be little cost advantage to a midrange (iron block would be cheaper than aluminum), you would probably lose whatever you saved in materials by the additional engineering, the increased fuel consumption (due to more weight), insurance wouldn't care what kind of V8 you had, so insurance would be about the same. Plus you'd need all the HD hardware to back up the midrange engine. So what you'd have in essence is the top model w/ a weaker engine as the sole difference.

However.....what I had suggested earlier was that if you were in fact stuck w/ only one V8, perhaps you could have your vanilla V8 Camaro...but the SS and Z28 could be specific option packages that would include some of the goodies from SLP like the lids, catbacks, MAF's, and who knows what else to get a little extra power (SLP didn't hesitate to market a 345hp package for the SS, even though all it basically equated to was a lid and catback, but it was a 20hp premium over the base SS) Granted most of US would see this for what it was, but the general public probably wouldn't notice or care...just like they don't know that the the only difference between the SS and Z, enginewise, is a catback. All they see is 15hp....and they paid for it in droves.

Make the base car available w/ v6 or v8, make the SS just as you did the last one, and make the Z28 out to be just like the SLP Firehawk.

PacerX

"We've been over this time and time again. And we all agree."


No we don't. You have a squirrell in your pocket.

I, for one, think a midlevel motor is a waste of money. Throw that cash into making my high-end motor more powerful, thank you very much.

dust6928

the aftermarket has shown that their is a better way of doing things: more sensitive maf, freer flowing exhaust from manifold to muffler, better flowing heads and intake. it wouldnt take much if any money for them to change a few things to the ls1 to see great improvements that wont effect mileage and may improve it without harming emissions. they have motors in the lineup that foot the bill (LS6). GM DONT SPEND ANYMORE MONEY ON R&D FOR MORE HORSEPOWER!!!!!! they need to design a body and use an existing chassis with a motor they already have in their stable. i think gm spends more money on r&d than any other company and they expect to get all of it back and then some so they up the prices of every model, multiplied by their forecast in sales, and add a little just to cover their azz. they need to use their available resources and not stroll down new avenues that is going to cost the consumer and gm by producing a car that the average person cant afford. GM, YOU ARE OUT OF THE GAME WHEN IT COMES TO AFFORDABLE SPORTSCARS, MAKE UP YOUR MARGIN BY USING DOLLARS FROM YOUR OTHER VEHICLES TO SUBSIDIZE THE MARKUP YOU NORMALLY GET ON YOUR PONYCARS. the biggest problem with any BIGWIG in a company is they are not willing to take one for the team. instead of not taking a raise one year and allowing that money to be put in to development, not research, just development of a new vehicle. just burns my azz when i think about it that they would let a legend die and it could have been saved if the higher ups would have foregone their probably 10-15% raise each year. come on GM, your higher ups are making in the millions, isnt that enough??????

guionM

Welcome to the site ADV1!

Bringing you up to speed, we've covered this subject alot. Typically someone posts the mid V8 idea under the assumption that it would save on insurence & appeal to youth, and though the idea of a mid-engine is generally supported by everyone here, the assumptions are completely wrong.

First, as redzed pointed out, it isn't the '70s & '80s anymore. Nissan has V6s that put out more horsepower than my LS1, and there are 4 cylinder engines today that have more horsepower than top powered Z28s from 1977 1/2 to 1985! That means a mid grade Camaro today should be a V6. Having a mid-grade V8 would be virturally useless because the power output would be too close to make it worthwhile.

But, you say, insurence would be lower That's completely false. Call up your insurence agent, and get quotes for a same year Z28 and the less powerful Mustang GT. For sh*ts & giggles, throw in a top drawer Mitsubishi Eclipse & Toyota Celica into the mix, and stand by. The reason for the HIGHER insurence rates for the less powerful cars is that there are more claims on those cars. The reason for more claims is because more youth drive those other cars. It has very little to do with horsepower, and everything to do with the rate of accidents.

This brings up the next position, bringing in more youth. Youth (meaning male gearheads) today are attracted to the same thing youth has always been attracted to: Cool cars with a MASSIVE aftermarket business to personalize their cars. The 4th gen has been sold as a "complete" car, while Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, even Chrysler's Neon (let alone Mustang with their 4 enthusiast magazines) have been all about aftermarket.

Best resolution of the middle engine question IMHO (assuming the next Camaro is smaller and lighter than the 4th gen) is the Ecotech 4 cylinder (with the performance of Camaro's 3800 V6) as base engine, with huge aftermarket support behind it, while a V6 capable of at least LT1 performance serves as middle engine, while the V8 continues on top.

More than anything, what Camaro needs is NO throwaway models, as the 4th gen V6 is. The base model should be a well equipted model without the stripper connotation. The mid-grade should be a Grand Touring car, much like the old Camaro LT of the 70s (with a blisteringly quick V6) to carry the bulk of the sales, in addition to a Cobra quick V8.

Simply throwing a detuned V8 into the mix wouldn't work.

Chuck!

Fender flares!