Z28Wilson

I agree. Just look at all the players in the entry-lux segment right now, those which you mentioned. They are all fighting there for a reason.

Big Als Z

Caddy stopping its slow march back to a true global luxury brand is a poor move IMO.
GM must not lose sight of its goals, or it will fall right back into the back of American people's minds.

Buick in China is getting Holden's(Park Ave), and the new Insigna(Regal) as well as several Daewoos(Excell). In America, it gets a larger Epsilon LaX and possibly getting the Insignia as a Regal too.
Saab must continue as a Euro brand, but be strong enough to fight Acura, Infinity, and some other entry level performance luxury brands.

GM must work on profitability. Its gunna have to be serious about it now that they will have to owe the goverment a few billion.

2012 will look like a totaly different company.

Chevy will hopefully have class leading fuel economy in every segment, with the flagship no longer being the Impala, but the Volt. Cruze gains of the Cobalt's momentum and with it going on its 2nd year, it gets a coupe perhaps and the Cobalt's time ends.
EP2 Malibu has made it to the market with full assortment of options to combat the imports.
Camaro is on its 2nd model year, with convertable and coupe models now running all over the map. Hopefully a Z28 model makes it out to capture enthusiasts hearts and minds. Corvette will still be in its 6th generation, but with serious revamps of the interior as well as a focus on fuel economy with Gen V V8's.
GMT900's get full make overs, with Gen V V8 regaining power and fuel economy titles.
Nox and Traverse hopefully get Orlando MPV.

Pontiac starts to be phased out. With dealers being merged together, the loss of Pontiac will most likely be replaced by Saturn instantaniously giving Saturn plenty of dealers to sell its product. Saturn can now turn it on full blast, offering a performance and European quality about thier cars, without stepping on anyone's toes in GM. Aura, Astra are brand new off new platforms. Vue gets revision to Theta-Epsilon and an small increase in size as well as revamp interior wise. Outlook is stopped as Vue has 7 seat capacity not to mention that would give THREE lambdas under one roof. Sky gets a revision and talks of its death is on the horizion. Dealers are slowly moving Pontiac out and Saturn in, learing the Saturn ways.

Buick contiues to be massive in China, but maintains a certain American luxuriness in America. LaX is full on, as well as a Delta 2 based smaller sedan added perhaps for a smaller vehicle without stepping on the Astra's toes or developing a SWB Ep2 to step on Aura's. It also gives Buick an entry level car, something on par to fight the Sebring and MKZ. Id also like to see a true Park Ave flag ship, but thats something that just might not happen with CAFE. Perhaps a Delta MPV for Buick in image of Enclave which is currently being thought of.

GMC right now doesnt look like a lot of change.
Hummer as well, if it doesnt sell.

Saab must move foward to being a really cool performance brand while sticking to its guns. Current 9-3 is the path they must follow. Id like for them to mimic the Acura brand in its build up of its image.

Caddy must continue to make better cars.
CTS is just the start. The BTS MUST nail the 3 series in every single aspect.
With the BTS taking on the entry level market, CTS should be getting an upgraded around 2012 with some more advanced equipment such as lane depature, true pushbutton, active suspension as an option, as well as a V8. Not an Ultra V8, not a BMW V8...I mean a Gen V V8. Anyone who has heard the G8 GT at anything under 2500rpm will understand where Im coming from. That thing is silent. This weekend, the NJ Fbody club met at TT Performance for a dyno day, and one of the members had his G8 GT ont he dyno. For the first few thousand RPM's, all you heard was an electric motor noise from the Dyno, and the wind whissling through the wheels. Even at WOT, it didnt sound ANYTHING remotly like a car putting down 300hp to the wheels.
Pushrods put Caddy at the top once before, and it should do it again. Notice how the pushrod crying has almost become nonexistant now a days. The press has realized that Pushrods can offer everything OHC's do, in smaller packages.
Direct Injected V8's making 400hp should be easy for GM to do with smaller displacement motors.
Hopefully by 2012, we will see an Alpha BTS, Upgraded CTS, and start seeing a DTS flag ship start roaming around Millford. I say keep it DTS, so it follows the alphabet. It leaves room for a A class, and plenty of room for advancements and different models in the future. Maybe bring back STS as coupe-like sedan, Sport Touring Sedan, a car styled with more art the science. A car with more flair then technology. Something designed using curves instead of rulers.
But we will see...
I hope that GM can cut out most of its middle managment, move towards more profitable sales, and move foward.

Z284ever

I think we can pretty much put any thoughts of a "new" DTS on ice for a long time. Now that the Zeta Caddy is dead, the DTS will get a refreshed and the N* gets replaced with a GDI 3.6. Not too long ago I had the use of an '09 DTS and I loved it! I can't imagine the 3.6 being as smooth, torquey or as nice to drive as the Northstar though.

By 2012, we'll probably still be seeing camo'd Alphas driving around Milford.

I can't imagine a large, flagship Cadillac coming anytime before 2015 or so - if at all.

Oh yeah, here's what I said about the '09 DTS, it somehow got moved to the lounge: https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=637793

JakeRobb

I think Guy and Al have the closest guesses. 2012 is too soon for a lot of the changes that have been suggested here to actually take form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambada

I suspect that's not what you meant.

guionM

If we were to step out of enthusiast mode and look at a business case, or look at it from the standpoint of someone who is more of a finance or business whiz instead of a car enthusiast, Alpha is nothing more than an extravagance. You'd have a bear of a time convincing someone that a RWD Alpha couldn't be done by a FWD Espilon. They might also point out that GM needs to get it's act here together instead of overseas. In that last point, they'd be right.

Correct.

However, the point will be that GM needs to get the basics right before they expand into a luxury segment.

Remember guys, GM is essentially in a debt that at best will take a decade to simply balence out. If Rick Wagoner is still CEO of GM this time next year and the board is still in tact, he should consider changing his name to Houdini and someone should submit the GM board to the Vatican to be declared a miracle. GM is currently the Titanic and according to their own words is within 2 months from completely going under.

The focus now is on surviving.

Regardless as to if help comes from the government, if some investors ride to the rescue, or if a miracle happens, and GM manages to stay afloat on it's own for a couple of years till it's able to stop the sinking and finally stableizes, Alpha is the most expendable known project in GM's plans.

It's not pleasant to think about as a enthusiast, but it is an unescapable fact.

Meant to say Lambda.

Damn computer's acting up again.

jg95z28

You know what I would seriously consider buying today if GM were to build it?

A Malibu-sized RWD performance sedan powered by a sub 2.0L turbo Ecotec and paddle-shift A6. And it would be priced under $30k out the door and wear a bowtie.

Seriously, I can't be the only one that believes GM needs to head in that direction if it is going to survive.

rlchv70

Remember, though that they need to return to profitability. You make more on luxury vehicles than your bread and butter cars.

jg95z28

Maybe on each car; but you easily sell 3 or 4 times as many bread and butter cars.

guionM

Funny you should say that.

Was thinking about what to buy next. Ideally, what I would need is a relatively small or midsized sedan. I don't need something as big as a Charger, 300, or a G8. I want to go back to a stickshift. After experiencing my Thunderbird SCs, I'm not a stickler for V8s as long as the car is as quick (or quicker) than one.

A used GTO is probably the closest affordable (meaning what I'm willing to pay) to what I want. However, the Lexus IS sedan with the 3.5 V6 and sub 6 second 0-60 sprint is what I would want if I bought new.

A RWD Malibu sedan with the DI 3.6 and a 6 speed manual would be perfect.

jg95z28

I might settle for that if GM were to build it.

guionM

But you sell far fewer of them.

Cadillac sold a total of 93,200 cars as of November 1st.

Chevrolet sold 627,267.

Even Pontiac sold 220,895 cars.

The other thing you miss is profit margins.

Although you'd sell a regular Lambda based Cadillac for less than a Sigma based one, because the cost of the chassis would be spread around a wider number of divisions and still get a sizable markup, you'd likely make just as much money utilizing less money to make it.

Thinking as an outsider whose only intention is to restore GM to profitability, that's the route I see them taking.

Z284ever

To that I'd say look at the current BLS. To the beancounter it seemed like such a good idea. Take a FWD Saab, give it some Cadillac sheetmetal, and there's your small Cadillac for nearly nothing. The problem though, is nearly no one bought it. It was a total sales failure.

If Cadillac wants to be taken seriously, it needs Alpha. Without it, it will have virtually no global reach at all. Also, the timing could not be more right for a small, premium, RWD family of cars from Cadillac for the US.

CaminoLS6

Fixed.

Z28x

Basically a 2008 CTS, both are 191 in.

Pontiac G8 is only 5 inches longer than those two cars.

Big Als Z

Agreed 100%. On paper, yes a Epsilon based 3 series fighter would be a good idea. Spread costs of the chassis, larger parts bin, and more mark up on Caddy cars for faster return on investment on Epsilon.
And yeah, that could work for America. But Caddy cannot be controled under beancounter mentality. Caddy's image, its status is at risk and if GM and Caddy cannot produce a solid 3 series fighter, then its a failure.
In the same thought, the Sigma should be canned to allow for Epsilon both SWB and LWB to replace it because, hey...whats in a platform?
This mentality kills Caddy day in, day out. Caddy needs to have a certain level of exclusivity towards certain programs and platforms.

In the same respect, GM must move foward with superflexible platforms. If all Alpha is going to be is a RWD performance sedan platform, making 30-40k performance sedans with a MAX 100k units if and when the car catches on, its a failure. Unless Alpha was cheaper to develop then Zeta, and uses parts bin equipment like Kappa did, I dont see any way GM should move foward at this time. GM would move foward with an Epsilon 2 based BLS program.

IMO, for Alpha to get a green light, it would have to be able to be built on existing plant. It would have to use in production components. It would have to also be flexible enough to make sedan, coupe, convertable, wagon, CUV, 2 seater roadster, and all on the same production line. If I had control, I would not move foward on it unless it met these criteria, on top of other targets that would have to be hit.
190 inchs max
4 and 6cyl
2, 4, 5 and 7 seat capacity, 2, 4, and 5 doors.
Weight limit of 3400lbs for RWD, 3600lbs AWD, Coupe no more then 3200lbs, CUV no more then 3700 RWD/3900lbs AWD


CTS is also several hundred pounds heavier then the Malibu.

I would like to see a Malibu coupe, FWD based, with the upcoming EP2 revision. I see NO overlap over Camaro, but offers yet another stylish car for Chevy, and increasing sales overall on the EP2 platform, boosting profitability.