Yeah...I guess you're right.

Along those lines.......


A V8 is "absolutely not required" and only a hardcore racer would know the difference.

And.....

Good looking sheetmetal is "absolutely not required" and only some kind of foo-foo designer would know the difference,

And....

Having a ponycar come from Chevy is "absolutely not required" and only a GM fan would know the difference between it and a Mustang.

 

That fallacy isn't new and falls in line with some of the past reasonings i've read here in the past. Remember these age old arguments: "Mustangs only sold well because they were bought for little teen 16 year old girls by their rich daddy's"...or "they're not enthusiast cars and none buys them for performance"... or "only reason mustang outsold camaro was because v6 mustangs sold well", etc...

Of course now you're hearing..."Mustang is only selling well because it is in a Vacuume and has ZERO competition".

Imo, i've always liked mustangs and love the 05's. But if i had 25-30k on hand right now, you had better believe i'll look into a base 350Z, EVO, WRX, rx8, Legacy GT 2.5 turbo, MazdaSpeed6, etc.... Hell, even Saturn Sky. Some of the cars i'd consider along with the mustang are 4 door, AWD, turbocharged sports sedans while two like the 350z and Sky are strict 2 seaters with one being a convertible. So anything sporty in the mustangs price segment is fair game.

If the mustang had NO competition, all sport coupe sales in the 20k to 30k price range would go to it. How many units would the mustang sell then? 500k annually? Perhaps 600k like the old days? Now that would = Zero competition.

 

I'd like to see track times.

My guess is that the Mustang is quicker on a roadcourse than a G35, and an F4 SS/WS6 will annihilate it.

 

When I bought my Cobra I could have bought a Camaro SS for the same price.
Do you know what sold me on the Cobra? It was the IRS ( I can go further into the other reasons but this isn't what we are talking about at this point in time). The Cobra rode nicer, was easier to drive fast, yes if I was on the drag strip it would wheel hop each time I did a hard shift but I don't just drive on the drag strip everyday. Plus the Cobra's IRS was reverse engineered to work on that platform. How do you explain a Z06, Viper, M5, ect all with around 500hp no wheel hopping an breaking things? I don't want to hear the bullsh!t about their price tags either.

 

Please prove me wrong.

 

Oh boy.. you may not realize what you did but you just poked the beast

 

I know what Iam getting into.

 

How many people traded in there 4th gen Camaros and Firebirds for a Mustang because "GM doesnt make the Fbody". They wanted a 2dr V8 sports car for under 30k. THERE IS ONLY ONE ON THE BLOCK! Most sales are due to people who are die hard fans or older people who loved the design new. Younger guys might buy it because its the newwest thing on the block.
But I will bet 100% that if there was a Camaro with IRS, LS2 standard making 390hp, with 6spd auto and 6spd manual, with a nice interior and killer looks, priced at 1-2k more then a comprable GT, the Mustang's success would not be nearly as big as it is now.
I would even bet that if Dodge were to throw its hat into the ring, you would get the same solution.
The cool factor of the GT trickles down into the V6 models as well. People who dont want to pay the big bucks for the GT will go for V6 model just because its "cool looking".
Id like to see the break down of V6 to V8 models as well.

 

I don't know. Do you? I doubt its really all that many.

 

Historically and generally, it's something along these approximate percentages
v6: 70%
GT: 25%
Cobra: 5%

They sold what last year? 112,000 mustangs? So in doing the math, around 78,400 were v6's, around 28,000 were GT's, and around 5,600 were Cobra's. I don't know the actual breakdown, but that's what the figures point to if you follow the typical 70%, 25%, and 5% breakdown.

This year though, who knows. Figures should be a lot more since the 04's were near the end of their life-cycle and the new ones are fairly fresh. No Cobra this year and so i expect GT to account for 30-40% of Mustang sales, with v6 making up 60-70%.

 

Big Al, you honestly think that GM would sell an IRS, 390hp V8, 6-speed auto or manual, IRS, killer looks and interior car for $27K????

I want some of what you have been smoking.

See, you are playing the happy "what if" game that guionM so kindly explained in another post. When there are no boundaries, you can imagine any scenerio you want. Noone can dispute what you say, because its vaporware anyway.

So fine, we can play that.............. so GM decides to sell their 2008 Camaro, with the features you list, for $27K. Then Ford decides to put the Ford GT back into production, ups the hp to 650, gives it a 10 speed auto as an option, upholsters the entire interior in leather that would make a Bentley owner smile, manipulates the electronics so it gets 45mpg, running on water, in the city, and prices it the same as the current Mustang GT.

My fantasy has as much validity as yours does. By having your vaporware have features and pricing that is in no way realistic, it would make anyone who would say they would buy a Mustang GT (or any other car for that matter) over it, an idiot.

 

I got my 2004 GTO lease based on a $24,xxx sales price.

Granted this was after a $3500 rebate, but so be it.... take that away, and I'm at your $27,xxx range.

Let's see:

It has a 350hp V8 (new one has 400hp)... check.
It has a 6 speed... check.
It has IRS... check.
It has nice looks (IMO), regardless, the way a vehicle looks has little effect on price... check.
It has probably the best interior in materials of any GM car ever sold in North America in the history of GM... check.



So, yes, I think it is easily possible... especially since Camaro should have much higher volume.

 

Darth, come on............. you know where I am coming from on this.

I don't remember every seeing the MSRP of the 2004 GTO being $27K
I don't remember seeing the 2004 GTO offering a 6-speed auto option
I don't remember seeing the 2004 GTO with 390hp
I don't remember seeing the 2004 GTO being on a brand new platform
I don't remember seeing the pricing of the 2004 GTO being in 2008 dollars

You know, my mothers sisters cousin on my fathers side, twice removed, was able to buy a Mustang GT for $20K even ($15K after the rebates that do not exist). Does this mean that Als vaporware Camaro will actually retail for $22K???

I guess it depends on how much money GM wants to lose on each one.

 

Yep.

As if a total garbage Mustang would still sell 200K units/yr with all the other coupe choices out there. IRS is clearly IMO not a deal breaker to these buyers IF the rest of the car is great.

For all those that swear they will not buy a Camaro if it doesn't have IRS: Good riddance to you. I hope you enjoy whatever you end up buying because I think you do yourself a disservice categorically disavowing the Camaro. You may end up missing out on a great car.

And just like those people that protest a new Wal-Mart and then you see them shopping there, I suspect some of the absolutists would end up buying a Camaro after all...

Of course we don't know anything about the car or if it will indeed be built, but I think it is short sighted and illogical to exclude a car based on one single criterion when it is only one piece of the overall car.

Would you buy an ugly, overweight, oversized Camaro with an awful interior if it had IRS? No. Then why would you automatically exclude a great overall car just because it has live axle.

Is it that live axle is archaic and old or is it that you PERCEIVE it to be antiquated and old? Our beliefs drive our opinions.

 

But did GM make any money on a GTO at $24,000? I bet not, since that's 8k below original MSRP. You have to remember after the dealer hijinx they had to severely discount GTOs. I wouldn't bet on long life for a 5th gen if they all have to be discounted 25% to sell.

For goodness sake a 2002 Z28 was $24,000 base price. You got a gob more content for the same price 3 years later.