An observation and comment......
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 33
Re: An observation and comment......
Originally Posted by Red Planet
After I left this site a few months back, I got many emails asking why I left and if I would not reconsider returning.
I think the world of Jason Debler...and a few other people on this board....and thus, I felt I'd come back on and lurk.
I've decided to post now and then.
Since then, I've gotten even more emails...most thanking me for my perspectives,...(and of course, I also receive the occasional rogue email now and then asking me to take a long walk on a short dock....)
(or worse..........)
I just responded to the most recent PM.....Lee sent me a note saying among other things "I'm a nobody on this site, but I'm glad you're back and I appreciate your comments."
So...I'm going to share with you the letter I sent back to him:
QUOTE:
Good evening, Lee, and thank you for taking the time to write to me. (by the way, I don't consider any of my fellow enthusiasts a 'nobody!')
I try to contribute by educating and giving perspective...and I guess that's my first mistake.
I think most on this site want GM to succeed...that said, I think there are a few out there that cannot wait for GM to fold. (and of course, they don't realize the consequences that has for the economy.)
It is rough for me in the sense that I know this business and I know we have some very talented people within GM. (we also have a few fools as well)
The problem is that it's very easy to sit at a keyboard and burst forth with 'wisdom' when you have no stake in the outcome. Moreover, many people 'think' they know how to fix GM, but trust me, the best minds in the world are baffled as to how to fix GM, Ford, the economy, etc.
I simply ask for fairness. I don't expect anyone to 'cowtow' to me or GM..however, I insist that people get their facts straight...and that they use some common courtesy. When they don't I'm taking them on.
As to how long I'll last? That remains to be seen. I think the world of Jason Debler, that's why I'm back. That said, there are literally hundreds of sites out there...most with intelligent people with a sense of fairness and decorum....so we shall see.
Anyway...I truly appreciate your kind words and it's great to know that there are more that appreciate my appearance on the site than not.
Keep the faith! the future looks brighter every day for the car we all love.
Scott
UNQUOTE......
I meant every word I typed.
I'm more and more concerned at the tone this site takes daily....there are thousands upon thousands of people within the Camaro/Firebird Community that have worked very hard for over 35 years to make this a true community. (please read my post 'how the Camaro got its name)
It bothers me when people lose their sense of decorum and type things without thinking.
The name of this site is "CamaroZ28.com" ...now, I don't exactly know what was on Jason and Chris's minds when they created this site, but I suspect it was to create a site where people who have a passion for Camaros (and Firebirds) could get together and celebrate the car, the community, and the industry. I'm not foolish enough to think everything's going to be cheery all the time. But I cannot believe how civility has evidently taken a vacation lately.
Guys and Dolls......let's start thinking before we type. Let's keep this a site where people can come in and talk intelligently to each other. (yes, I'm guilty of flaming a few people when I reach my limit......I promise to work on that.)
That's the way I see it.......
I think the world of Jason Debler...and a few other people on this board....and thus, I felt I'd come back on and lurk.
I've decided to post now and then.
Since then, I've gotten even more emails...most thanking me for my perspectives,...(and of course, I also receive the occasional rogue email now and then asking me to take a long walk on a short dock....)
(or worse..........)
I just responded to the most recent PM.....Lee sent me a note saying among other things "I'm a nobody on this site, but I'm glad you're back and I appreciate your comments."
So...I'm going to share with you the letter I sent back to him:
QUOTE:
Good evening, Lee, and thank you for taking the time to write to me. (by the way, I don't consider any of my fellow enthusiasts a 'nobody!')
I try to contribute by educating and giving perspective...and I guess that's my first mistake.
I think most on this site want GM to succeed...that said, I think there are a few out there that cannot wait for GM to fold. (and of course, they don't realize the consequences that has for the economy.)
It is rough for me in the sense that I know this business and I know we have some very talented people within GM. (we also have a few fools as well)
The problem is that it's very easy to sit at a keyboard and burst forth with 'wisdom' when you have no stake in the outcome. Moreover, many people 'think' they know how to fix GM, but trust me, the best minds in the world are baffled as to how to fix GM, Ford, the economy, etc.
I simply ask for fairness. I don't expect anyone to 'cowtow' to me or GM..however, I insist that people get their facts straight...and that they use some common courtesy. When they don't I'm taking them on.
As to how long I'll last? That remains to be seen. I think the world of Jason Debler, that's why I'm back. That said, there are literally hundreds of sites out there...most with intelligent people with a sense of fairness and decorum....so we shall see.
Anyway...I truly appreciate your kind words and it's great to know that there are more that appreciate my appearance on the site than not.
Keep the faith! the future looks brighter every day for the car we all love.
Scott
UNQUOTE......
I meant every word I typed.
I'm more and more concerned at the tone this site takes daily....there are thousands upon thousands of people within the Camaro/Firebird Community that have worked very hard for over 35 years to make this a true community. (please read my post 'how the Camaro got its name)
It bothers me when people lose their sense of decorum and type things without thinking.
The name of this site is "CamaroZ28.com" ...now, I don't exactly know what was on Jason and Chris's minds when they created this site, but I suspect it was to create a site where people who have a passion for Camaros (and Firebirds) could get together and celebrate the car, the community, and the industry. I'm not foolish enough to think everything's going to be cheery all the time. But I cannot believe how civility has evidently taken a vacation lately.
Guys and Dolls......let's start thinking before we type. Let's keep this a site where people can come in and talk intelligently to each other. (yes, I'm guilty of flaming a few people when I reach my limit......I promise to work on that.)
That's the way I see it.......
We have all been at a point of dis-belief or frustration with the circumstances surrounding Camaro. I know that it has to be 20fold on you. But I bought a Camaro for what it represents not how many cars it sold in a year. I know that ultimately it has to sell but I'm merely approaching this from an enthusiasts perspective right now. GM and Chevy has always represented performance at an affordable price for the masses. The competition builds a few ringers
and the rest are pretty much lunch meat for the majority of our cars but they get the glory. How twisted it is. They just simply laugh there way to the bank. But thats ok
. I will continue to keep the faith simply because I believe in performance before image and because of people like you. Thank you for all you do!
Registered User
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 3,252
From: Knoxville, TN
Re: An observation and comment......
I pull for GM as much as the next guy (yep, even though I own, and have owned, mostly Fords of late). Given that I'm a non-insider, non-industry, and non-economist, I still understand what a failing GM can and would do to our economy. I WANT to see a Camaro (and/or Firebird) return - sooner rather than later - for a variety of reasons.
That said, you cannot expect everybody to "keep the faith" based soley on somebody telling them that they should "keep the faith." The hardest core Camaro nuts would probably stand behind you anxiously awaiting the next F-body for another 20 years or more. There are some folks like that here - and more power to em. But I feel other enthusiasts - including some pure F-body enthusiasts - might not be so forgiving, and I think it is unwise to expect them to be anything else.
Idle comment.....always good to read your posts.
That said, you cannot expect everybody to "keep the faith" based soley on somebody telling them that they should "keep the faith." The hardest core Camaro nuts would probably stand behind you anxiously awaiting the next F-body for another 20 years or more. There are some folks like that here - and more power to em. But I feel other enthusiasts - including some pure F-body enthusiasts - might not be so forgiving, and I think it is unwise to expect them to be anything else.
Idle comment.....always good to read your posts.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 603
From: I-L-L-I-N-O-I-S
Re: An observation and comment......
Originally Posted by Bob Cosby
I pull for GM as much as the next guy (yep, even though I own, and have owned, mostly Fords of late). Given that I'm a non-insider, non-industry, and non-economist, I still understand what a failing GM can and would do to our economy. I WANT to see a Camaro (and/or Firebird) return - sooner rather than later - for a variety of reasons.
That said, you cannot expect everybody to "keep the faith" based soley on somebody telling them that they should "keep the faith." The hardest core Camaro nuts would probably stand behind you anxiously awaiting the next F-body for another 20 years or more. There are some folks like that here - and more power to em. But I feel other enthusiasts - including some pure F-body enthusiasts - might not be so forgiving, and I think it is unwise to expect them to be anything else.
Idle comment.....always good to read your posts.
That said, you cannot expect everybody to "keep the faith" based soley on somebody telling them that they should "keep the faith." The hardest core Camaro nuts would probably stand behind you anxiously awaiting the next F-body for another 20 years or more. There are some folks like that here - and more power to em. But I feel other enthusiasts - including some pure F-body enthusiasts - might not be so forgiving, and I think it is unwise to expect them to be anything else.
Idle comment.....always good to read your posts.
After a while, "keeping the faith" just gets kind of old to me...Don't get me wrong, because I truly believe in the power of faith.
And there is nothing wrong in continuously reaffirming that to us true enthusiasts. But it's just that for something materialistic such as a car, I can only keep so much faith before I decide it's time to move on...I don't want too at all, but then again, I'm not going to put certain parts of my life on hold waiting for a car that is just taking too long to get back out to us... 
Yes, like many others on here, my patience has (and still is) being tested to the extreme with this "possible" 5th generation Camaro (would love to see a Firebird too although that seems highly unlikely). Anyways, I'm 25 now and already have two 4th gen Z28's, but wouldn't mind adding a nice NEW Camaro to that stable hopefully sometime soon (within two years). But if it is going to take beyond that to get the car out, I can't guarantee I'll be a buyer at that time (or even interested anymore at that point).
With that said, thanks again for posting RP and I do believe you guys at GM are trying to make everything right...Hopefully you all will end up surprising us when we least expect it...
Mike
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 599
From: Inland Empire, CA
Re: An observation and comment......
Bob Cosby said it best. The effort is appreciated, and I'm sure it sucks for RP to not be able to give us what we want, but "Don't worry you'll be happy with a car we'll come out some time!" doesn't really reaffirm me as a customer. What other market would we allow a company to tell us "keep the faith" without giving us an inkling of information about their product, forgoing other products just for the chance that this product that we're "faithfully" waiting for is going to be the best thing we've ever gotten?
I'm not trying to be a negative Nancy. I WANT GM to do well, I WANT GM to step up and raise the bar. I know the company is capable of a lot more than they've been giving us, and that's what's so frustrating. The Cobalt SS is a great start, and it seems maybe 5 years from now GM will decide to get back in the game for pony cars too. But GM is going to win me back with a PRODUCT, not a promise. The promise of a great car isn't going to get me to work, or to the end of the drag strip. Looking forward to a product coming out from GM, and I hope it's a world beater. Until then? Well, my sig pretty much sums it up there. Unfortunately Cobalt came out about 3 months too late.
I'm not trying to be a negative Nancy. I WANT GM to do well, I WANT GM to step up and raise the bar. I know the company is capable of a lot more than they've been giving us, and that's what's so frustrating. The Cobalt SS is a great start, and it seems maybe 5 years from now GM will decide to get back in the game for pony cars too. But GM is going to win me back with a PRODUCT, not a promise. The promise of a great car isn't going to get me to work, or to the end of the drag strip. Looking forward to a product coming out from GM, and I hope it's a world beater. Until then? Well, my sig pretty much sums it up there. Unfortunately Cobalt came out about 3 months too late.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 576
From: Houston, TX
Re: An observation and comment......
RP.. good to see you back…. and your opinions and insight is something that I’ve never experienced before. Usually on other sites insiders sort of leave clues etc. but that’s it, you give a perspective and it has made an impact.
When I first joined this site I would just click and see what this forum had in-store for a future beloved Camaro.. over time it has come to mean a lot more. This forum not only gave me an insiders view thanks to you/Pacer/Guion and others but also helps answer a lot of questions regarding how GM works.. the meaning of important issues. For e.g. why weight plays such a vital role (answer: CAFÉ) in relation to a convertible or a rear end.
The specifications and business cases etc. that the industry is running on. If I didn’t come here etc. I wouldn’t be able to understand most of it and just be yelling ”Why can’t GM build a GTO that can spank a Cobra by supercharging the LS1 to begin with etc.” That is what separates me from then and now. I understand that there is a LOT more to it than just dropping a s/c to a particular motor due to emissions/testing/durability etc.
I had the privilege to meet you on your trip to Houston and I must say I enjoyed it and look forward to another visit by you to the Bayou city..(yes dinner/drinks are on me!) because you are not just a car enthusiast but a wonderful person and I am glad that you work in the industry and we can so openly share a friendly connection where you visit with regular folks like me and share your experiences/opinions.
About the criticism.. I will admit that sometimes the little things should be addressed and there is no other place to vent but here… where else can we discuss openly about a topic so dear like a site/forum like this. Other sites have members that may/may not be as passionate about camaros like here. If for e.g. I have a question like “Why can’t a future Camaro have a Corvette IRS?” I would get different answers here from various people that can help me understand that all the processes behind such a request rather than “it is not possible because it would cost more”. People that have an insight to the industry such as yourself and Charlie can shed light on more than the answer but can also go into detail about the ‘behind the scenes” stuff that help fit the pieces of the puzzle.
My criticism towards GM’s products or parts is only out of the interest to help GM and try to understand why it is done the way it is be it a cost issue/quality or otherwise. We definitely do not want GM to fall but want them to rise up to all challenges so that the media and publi’s perception changes for the better and to help them achieve that goal
When I first joined this site I would just click and see what this forum had in-store for a future beloved Camaro.. over time it has come to mean a lot more. This forum not only gave me an insiders view thanks to you/Pacer/Guion and others but also helps answer a lot of questions regarding how GM works.. the meaning of important issues. For e.g. why weight plays such a vital role (answer: CAFÉ) in relation to a convertible or a rear end.
The specifications and business cases etc. that the industry is running on. If I didn’t come here etc. I wouldn’t be able to understand most of it and just be yelling ”Why can’t GM build a GTO that can spank a Cobra by supercharging the LS1 to begin with etc.” That is what separates me from then and now. I understand that there is a LOT more to it than just dropping a s/c to a particular motor due to emissions/testing/durability etc.
I had the privilege to meet you on your trip to Houston and I must say I enjoyed it and look forward to another visit by you to the Bayou city..(yes dinner/drinks are on me!) because you are not just a car enthusiast but a wonderful person and I am glad that you work in the industry and we can so openly share a friendly connection where you visit with regular folks like me and share your experiences/opinions.
About the criticism.. I will admit that sometimes the little things should be addressed and there is no other place to vent but here… where else can we discuss openly about a topic so dear like a site/forum like this. Other sites have members that may/may not be as passionate about camaros like here. If for e.g. I have a question like “Why can’t a future Camaro have a Corvette IRS?” I would get different answers here from various people that can help me understand that all the processes behind such a request rather than “it is not possible because it would cost more”. People that have an insight to the industry such as yourself and Charlie can shed light on more than the answer but can also go into detail about the ‘behind the scenes” stuff that help fit the pieces of the puzzle.
My criticism towards GM’s products or parts is only out of the interest to help GM and try to understand why it is done the way it is be it a cost issue/quality or otherwise. We definitely do not want GM to fall but want them to rise up to all challenges so that the media and publi’s perception changes for the better and to help them achieve that goal
Last edited by ced8; May 5, 2005 at 01:48 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,748
From: New England
Re: An observation and comment......
Red if your still widdling through the comments..
I think its a double edged sword here, people that are in the know have said its in the pipe, you explaining the hickups that GM has had and giving us a light into the tunnel has helped out alot. but its not the product that is scaring us it is the time. what impact will it make if its not considered a new car for the new muscle car era...and its just an add on..I think you gotta push to the people that control you that its timing..and it has run out ...
we are just a small percentage on this board that will be the buyers of the car...and we are the hard core that WILL buy the car...or support it..but life means we need something sooner than later..
What im saying is GM has to put a stop gap to all this mustang popularity and soon, that will help and this stop gap will lead to the new Camaro, just cant wait 3 yrs in 2009 for a new Camaro, by then its to late..Lutz got the GTO here in a pretty fast amount of time and thats in OZ, this is america the platform is almost ready just gotta lite a fire under someones butt..the GTO I mentioned is more than anyone hoped for, just the dealers "adjusting" the market price killed it..and thats all...
the Camaro being a high volume car would not follow wuit in that and if in two yrs comes out. well just like in 1967 we will be back in the pony car wars..just gotta be under 1 yr for an announcement and 2 yrs for product..meaning 2008 and no car...well GM will have lost the bet.
Red you gave us a great hope in comming back, and hope it means good things, I always come on this board fearing to see you post " all is lost" or something to that effect..the faith is back for you and the ones pushing for it. were behind you.
Its just a matter of time...how far can we stay behind you..and mean it??
I think its a double edged sword here, people that are in the know have said its in the pipe, you explaining the hickups that GM has had and giving us a light into the tunnel has helped out alot. but its not the product that is scaring us it is the time. what impact will it make if its not considered a new car for the new muscle car era...and its just an add on..I think you gotta push to the people that control you that its timing..and it has run out ...
we are just a small percentage on this board that will be the buyers of the car...and we are the hard core that WILL buy the car...or support it..but life means we need something sooner than later..
What im saying is GM has to put a stop gap to all this mustang popularity and soon, that will help and this stop gap will lead to the new Camaro, just cant wait 3 yrs in 2009 for a new Camaro, by then its to late..Lutz got the GTO here in a pretty fast amount of time and thats in OZ, this is america the platform is almost ready just gotta lite a fire under someones butt..the GTO I mentioned is more than anyone hoped for, just the dealers "adjusting" the market price killed it..and thats all...
the Camaro being a high volume car would not follow wuit in that and if in two yrs comes out. well just like in 1967 we will be back in the pony car wars..just gotta be under 1 yr for an announcement and 2 yrs for product..meaning 2008 and no car...well GM will have lost the bet.
Red you gave us a great hope in comming back, and hope it means good things, I always come on this board fearing to see you post " all is lost" or something to that effect..the faith is back for you and the ones pushing for it. were behind you.
Its just a matter of time...how far can we stay behind you..and mean it??
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,575
From: Arlington, Texas
Re: An observation and comment......
Couple of things. Remember, the first time around, Chevrolet was silent for 2.5 YEARS when the first Mustang came out, allowing it to rack up something like half a MILLION sales or some crazy number like that. Second time around, Mustang in '79, Camaro..1982. While the pattern doesn't prove or infer anything about the 5th gen, history does tell us that the General is sometimes late to the party, but when it does show up, it's worth waiting for.
So for those that just MUST have a new car, take this opportunity to try something different, GTO, Mustang, G35, ect. Get a 2 or 3 year lease or whatever, and check back in MY2008 or thereabouts.
Also, the quick work on the GTO, I know everyone knows this, but remember that the car was already on the streets in OZ, all GM had to do was change the front end, the gas tank, and some other stuff. Much easier, and quicker, than creating a new car, even one using off the shelf parts.
So for those that just MUST have a new car, take this opportunity to try something different, GTO, Mustang, G35, ect. Get a 2 or 3 year lease or whatever, and check back in MY2008 or thereabouts.
Also, the quick work on the GTO, I know everyone knows this, but remember that the car was already on the streets in OZ, all GM had to do was change the front end, the gas tank, and some other stuff. Much easier, and quicker, than creating a new car, even one using off the shelf parts.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,887
From: northeast Miss.
Re: An observation and comment......
Man, I just love it when you (Red Planet) and a couple others post here.
Your posts offer a perspective, rather than a spoonfed A+B=C response.
I've always enjoyed learning WHY things work, not IF they work.
Keep the insight and good news coming and maybe we can present the General with a more respectable board. One day...
Your posts offer a perspective, rather than a spoonfed A+B=C response.
I've always enjoyed learning WHY things work, not IF they work.
Keep the insight and good news coming and maybe we can present the General with a more respectable board. One day...
Thread Starter
ALMIGHTY MEMBER
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,298
From: Detroit, MI USA
Re: An observation and comment......
Originally Posted by graham
Man, I just love it when you (Red Planet) and a couple others post here.
Your posts offer a perspective, rather than a spoonfed A+B=C response.
I've always enjoyed learning WHY things work, not IF they work.
Keep the insight and good news coming and maybe we can present the General with a more respectable board. One day...
Your posts offer a perspective, rather than a spoonfed A+B=C response.
I've always enjoyed learning WHY things work, not IF they work.
Keep the insight and good news coming and maybe we can present the General with a more respectable board. One day...
GM and Ford getting "junk bond" status is not helping, by the way.
As to "keep the faith"....IF it ever came to the point where the plug was pulled, believe me, I would not be saying "keep the faith".....I plan to be on this planet for a few more years...and if I lied, I suspect most of you would show up at my doorstep with very large clubs..........
thanks for the kind words, all...........
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
Re: An observation and comment......
Originally Posted by Red Planet
I suspect most of you would show up at my doorstep with very large clubs..........
thanks for the kind words, all...........
thanks for the kind words, all...........
Damn, he knows the plan!
Hope he hasn't figured out who is staring at him throught the window at night too
