Obama: 42 MPG for cars + CO2 regs by 2016.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,402
From: Toronto, ON Canada
I don't trust the EPA ratings on cars. My GTO is rated 16/24 and it averages 13mpg completely stock. I live in Puerto Rico, where hilly and slower driving is normal, my car doesn't even come close to 16 mpg average EVER...
My Focus SVT averaged 20 mpg and had ratings around 18/26 or so....
I'm digging the upcoming Fiesta with the 1.6 vct-i engine.
My Focus SVT averaged 20 mpg and had ratings around 18/26 or so....
I'm digging the upcoming Fiesta with the 1.6 vct-i engine.
However, since conditions differ, our mileage is usually worse. I live downtown, most of my driving is short trips.
Its highway rating is spot on.
Same with my Mazda 3. Highway rating is spot on, actually I get slightly better highway mileage than advertised, and city is also spot on, but only if I drive easy and avoid congestion. in the winter, it got 25% worse mileage than advertised.
Take it as a guide, but generally, that's what I look at when determining what to expect from a car.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,977
From: SeVa
Oh well, we'll see? a MY11 Mustang might just be the last one I purchase for other than purely economic reasons
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 10,285
From: Albany, NY
I disagree, look at what sold and what didn't Summer 2008
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 538
CAFE and manufacturer based mileage requirements = FAIL
It hasn't worked over the last 30 years, we're in worse position now being dependent on oil more so than ever before. We have not address the fundamental issue.
Making vehicles more efficient, only makes driving cheaper per mile. Making it cheaper per mile to drive is going to do what, allow people to drive more. Our consumption only curtails if the price of fuel goes sky high, though this does nothing to address the fundamental issue.
The longer we avoid making a change to the source of our energy for vehicle transportation the longer we'll be laden by this crutch and the longer it will be until we're free of this sole fuel source for our vehicles.
These will not be hard or cheap decisions, but the right decisions for our future.
It hasn't worked over the last 30 years, we're in worse position now being dependent on oil more so than ever before. We have not address the fundamental issue.
Making vehicles more efficient, only makes driving cheaper per mile. Making it cheaper per mile to drive is going to do what, allow people to drive more. Our consumption only curtails if the price of fuel goes sky high, though this does nothing to address the fundamental issue.
The longer we avoid making a change to the source of our energy for vehicle transportation the longer we'll be laden by this crutch and the longer it will be until we're free of this sole fuel source for our vehicles.
These will not be hard or cheap decisions, but the right decisions for our future.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,402
From: Toronto, ON Canada
I haven't heard anyone predicting doom & gloom over Mitsubishi's Eclipse, or the death of the V6 engines powering many imports.... and don't get me started on comparing European imports.
And these V8 numbers are without direct injection!!!
And these numbers are with today's huge 2 ton coupes which will likely be downsized by mid decade!!
Direct injection is coming to all V8s, along with more mpg.... and even more power. If V8s are downsided with direct injection, then we'll see the same power and even more mpg with no other changes.
Throw in lighter cars (ie: Alpha), then there's even more mpg to be had on top of all of this.
So, anyone going into vapor lock over the new standards, or playing chicken little spreading fear on the internet needs to take a breath, look at the numbers, look at what's in the pipeline, and relax.
As long as the public buys RWD V8 performance cars, there WILL be RWD V8 performance cars.
And these V8 numbers are without direct injection!!!
And these numbers are with today's huge 2 ton coupes which will likely be downsized by mid decade!!
Direct injection is coming to all V8s, along with more mpg.... and even more power. If V8s are downsided with direct injection, then we'll see the same power and even more mpg with no other changes.
Throw in lighter cars (ie: Alpha), then there's even more mpg to be had on top of all of this.
So, anyone going into vapor lock over the new standards, or playing chicken little spreading fear on the internet needs to take a breath, look at the numbers, look at what's in the pipeline, and relax.
As long as the public buys RWD V8 performance cars, there WILL be RWD V8 performance cars.
Guy, excellent comparison. There are problems, though, among them being that the general public is not literate.
The second problem is that the media continues to exploit people's perception that america makes large, heavy vehicles with large engines that suck gas. Not a single article will talk about gas-guzzling Infinity.
The third problem is the administration. They are attempting to tackle climate change. This has nothing to do with climate change, but that's besides the point. Let's call it more appropriately by the term "pollution". I am for reducing pollution. Cars that the public buys have minimal effect on global pollution, or the pollution in the US. In fact, there was a study done by one of the transportation ministries/authorities that stated that commercial vehicles (trucks/buses) contribute to 90% of vehicular emissions. The administration's attack of climate change should concentrate on heavy polluters first and foremost. I support the idea of ever-improving vehicle mileage, but let's address the real issues, not some conjured up/concocted ideas that have minute effect on the environment compared to other big pollutants.
Way to demonize the people. Just like blaming your country's enormous debt on "irresponsible consumers". As if they make up the largest borrowing entity
How about finding a log in your own eye first?
Last edited by muckz; May 19, 2009 at 01:26 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,977
From: SeVa
Hell, looking beyond the transportation issue, the average $h!tbox people call a house produces more pollution than a car does due to the way we generate the bulk of our electricity.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
From: manassas, VA
Homogeneous charge compression ignition (HCCI) is a form of internal combustion in which well-mixed fuel and oxidizer (typically air) are compressed to the point of auto-ignition....
HCCI has characteristics of the two most popular forms of combustion used in IC engines: homogeneous charge spark ignition (gasoline engines) and stratified charge compression ignition (diesel engines)....
The defining characteristic of HCCI is that the ignition occurs at several places at a time which makes the fuel/air mixture burn nearly simultaneously....
Advantages
HCCI provides up to a 15-percent fuel savings, while meeting current emissions standards.
Since HCCI engines are fuel-lean, they can operate at a Diesel-like compression ratios (>15), thus achieving higher efficiencies than conventional spark-ignited gasoline engines.[1]
Homogeneous mixing of fuel and air leads to cleaner combustion and lower emissions. In fact, because peak temperatures are significantly lower than in typical spark ignited engines, NOx levels are almost negligible. Additionally, the premixed lean mixture does not produce soot.[2]
HCCI engines can operate on gasoline, diesel fuel, and most alternative fuels. [3]
In regards to gasoline engines, the omission of throttle losses improves HCCI efficiency.[4]
[edit] Disadvantages
High in-cylinder peak pressures may cause damage to the engine.
High heat release and pressure rise rates contribute to engine wear.
The autoignition event is difficult of control, unlike the ignition event in spark ignition (SI) and Diesel engines which are controlled by spark plugs and in-cylinder fuel injectors, respectively.[5]
HCCI engines have a small power range, constrained at low loads by lean flammability limits and high loads by in-cylinder pressure restictions.[6]
Carbon monoxide (CO) and hydrocarbon (HC) pre-catalyst emissions are higher than a typical spark ignition engine, caused by incomplete oxidation (due to the rapid combustion event and low in-cylinder temperatures) and trapped crevice gases, respectively.[7]
HCCI has characteristics of the two most popular forms of combustion used in IC engines: homogeneous charge spark ignition (gasoline engines) and stratified charge compression ignition (diesel engines)....
The defining characteristic of HCCI is that the ignition occurs at several places at a time which makes the fuel/air mixture burn nearly simultaneously....
Advantages
HCCI provides up to a 15-percent fuel savings, while meeting current emissions standards.
Since HCCI engines are fuel-lean, they can operate at a Diesel-like compression ratios (>15), thus achieving higher efficiencies than conventional spark-ignited gasoline engines.[1]
Homogeneous mixing of fuel and air leads to cleaner combustion and lower emissions. In fact, because peak temperatures are significantly lower than in typical spark ignited engines, NOx levels are almost negligible. Additionally, the premixed lean mixture does not produce soot.[2]
HCCI engines can operate on gasoline, diesel fuel, and most alternative fuels. [3]
In regards to gasoline engines, the omission of throttle losses improves HCCI efficiency.[4]
[edit] Disadvantages
High in-cylinder peak pressures may cause damage to the engine.
High heat release and pressure rise rates contribute to engine wear.
The autoignition event is difficult of control, unlike the ignition event in spark ignition (SI) and Diesel engines which are controlled by spark plugs and in-cylinder fuel injectors, respectively.[5]
HCCI engines have a small power range, constrained at low loads by lean flammability limits and high loads by in-cylinder pressure restictions.[6]
Carbon monoxide (CO) and hydrocarbon (HC) pre-catalyst emissions are higher than a typical spark ignition engine, caused by incomplete oxidation (due to the rapid combustion event and low in-cylinder temperatures) and trapped crevice gases, respectively.[7]
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,011
From: Exton, Pennsylvania
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
Well you have to look at the time also. That is when credit tightened and really limited peoples buying power. Bad credit conditions, and high gas, will push people into cheaper cars (which tend to be more fuel efficiant), or used cars...however that is not what they want to buy. Also, summer of 2008 was when you first started seeing the sales drop to 50% under prior year..which is really depression level. So I don't think it is indicative a change in consumer taste...more a matter of the people who could buy something spending less.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
OK - truth hurts.
I have said for years that we are at the 2nd peak of performance cars, and just like before - it will die. I have speculated that insurance companies will have their share of the blame, the government will have it's share, and the economy would do the rest. There is no single person to execute here - it's a movement, collective, en-masse.
I'm going to ask every one of you - one on one - to be very honest with yourself for just a second.
Do you really need 400hp to drive to work and back every day?
Do you really need 540hp to go out for dinner Saturday night with the wife and kids?
Do you really need 390hp to bring home groceries tonight?
Do you really need 455hp to run the packages to the post office?
Do you really need 500hp in the drag car you race at the local track on the weekend? (OK - this one was to see if you are paying attention!
)
You see, we (especially Americans) are so spoiled and wasteful it is insane. We think it is our birthright to own a fast car, an SUV, and a toy in the garage. We think nothing about wasting gas, oil, and other resources because, well, we simply "want that vehicle". Yet again, we are our own worst enemy. We are greedy, self-centered humans that are letting the spoils of Pandora's Box get the best of us... again.
I have maintained, and will continue to maintain, that the automotive market is just in the beginnings of a major shift. One that will result in the elimination of many of the mainstays of the last 20 years. We are about to see vehicles that are much lighter, less powerful, and more eco-friendly. Try to be honest with yourself, and understand what you really NEED versus what you want to have for your everyday vehicle. Some of the folks on this board (in the "If there was no Camaro" thread) have already indicated that the new Camaro is no longer on their list of desired vehicles due to babies, job situation, etc. Those are the kinds of folks that are more in-tune with their actual needs as compared with their desires.
Now listen, it is TOTALLY OK to want a new Camaro SS. I want one - I swear I do. But is it at the top of my needs list? Nope. Nor should it be. Would a V6 be at the top of the needs list? Maybe not, but it sure is farther up the list than an SS. A 4-door or crossover would be further up the list for me than the V6 Camaro, as I have a family and appreciate the 4-doors alot.
This plays right into the economic plan that I have touted for the lineup as well. Exotic, big-engined performers are toys for people with money. They are not/should not be intended for mainstream volumes and daily-driver vehicles of the masses. I love them as much as anyone, but their existence is for a different purpose IMO.
Some of you guys can flame away at me all you like, but I speak the truth to you. I work in this industry, developing parts and systems for cars that are 2-3 years away from seeing the streets, and I am telling you what is coming. You can fight it or embrace it, but it IS coming.
In 5 years or so, I expect to see us bench-racing our upcoming 2800-lb ponycars that have I-4, I-5, and V6 engines with direct injection and power adders. A few years after that, we will be talking about adding low-weight capacitors for a short boost to the electric wheel motors and current/voltage-management programs to maximize our range while maintaining performance.
I have said for years that we are at the 2nd peak of performance cars, and just like before - it will die. I have speculated that insurance companies will have their share of the blame, the government will have it's share, and the economy would do the rest. There is no single person to execute here - it's a movement, collective, en-masse.
I'm going to ask every one of you - one on one - to be very honest with yourself for just a second.
Do you really need 400hp to drive to work and back every day?
Do you really need 540hp to go out for dinner Saturday night with the wife and kids?
Do you really need 390hp to bring home groceries tonight?
Do you really need 455hp to run the packages to the post office?
Do you really need 500hp in the drag car you race at the local track on the weekend? (OK - this one was to see if you are paying attention!
)You see, we (especially Americans) are so spoiled and wasteful it is insane. We think it is our birthright to own a fast car, an SUV, and a toy in the garage. We think nothing about wasting gas, oil, and other resources because, well, we simply "want that vehicle". Yet again, we are our own worst enemy. We are greedy, self-centered humans that are letting the spoils of Pandora's Box get the best of us... again.
I have maintained, and will continue to maintain, that the automotive market is just in the beginnings of a major shift. One that will result in the elimination of many of the mainstays of the last 20 years. We are about to see vehicles that are much lighter, less powerful, and more eco-friendly. Try to be honest with yourself, and understand what you really NEED versus what you want to have for your everyday vehicle. Some of the folks on this board (in the "If there was no Camaro" thread) have already indicated that the new Camaro is no longer on their list of desired vehicles due to babies, job situation, etc. Those are the kinds of folks that are more in-tune with their actual needs as compared with their desires.
Now listen, it is TOTALLY OK to want a new Camaro SS. I want one - I swear I do. But is it at the top of my needs list? Nope. Nor should it be. Would a V6 be at the top of the needs list? Maybe not, but it sure is farther up the list than an SS. A 4-door or crossover would be further up the list for me than the V6 Camaro, as I have a family and appreciate the 4-doors alot.
This plays right into the economic plan that I have touted for the lineup as well. Exotic, big-engined performers are toys for people with money. They are not/should not be intended for mainstream volumes and daily-driver vehicles of the masses. I love them as much as anyone, but their existence is for a different purpose IMO.
Some of you guys can flame away at me all you like, but I speak the truth to you. I work in this industry, developing parts and systems for cars that are 2-3 years away from seeing the streets, and I am telling you what is coming. You can fight it or embrace it, but it IS coming.
In 5 years or so, I expect to see us bench-racing our upcoming 2800-lb ponycars that have I-4, I-5, and V6 engines with direct injection and power adders. A few years after that, we will be talking about adding low-weight capacitors for a short boost to the electric wheel motors and current/voltage-management programs to maximize our range while maintaining performance.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 22
I have the truck I want, the Camaro SS is on order. With proper maintenance I'll never need another. With my income, gas isn't a problem. F 'em!
Let's start up a V8 / Diesel convoy in/around DC. Stay just fast enough to avoid tickets.
Add signs to the vehicles stating our displeasure with Govt. intrusion into our lives.
We can gridlock DC and SHUT IT DOWN for a day!
Let's start up a V8 / Diesel convoy in/around DC. Stay just fast enough to avoid tickets.
Add signs to the vehicles stating our displeasure with Govt. intrusion into our lives.
We can gridlock DC and SHUT IT DOWN for a day!
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,650
From: Indianapolis, IN
Proud, life would suck if all we are able to do is what we NEED to do just to survive. I guess you aren't suggesting that, but simply pointing out that the market is adjusting (as they tend to do)... ?
I mean, some basic food, a place to s**t, and a place to sleep that keeps the weather off of us ought to do it, right?
So only rich folks should be able to enjoy a fast car?
And today's 400 hp cars do better on fuel (in normal driving) than the leviathons of old, offering far superior performance, safety, handling, emissions, etc. Not to mention, it isn't like everyone is buying the 400 hp versions of cars. There may be a lot more options than a few years ago at that power level, but they are still a vast, vast minority.
Meanwhile, yes, average horsepower has gone up across the board. And the market can (and is) adjusting by way of supply and demand. When people decide that the price of fuel is high enough, they'll opt for the 4 cylinder Malibu instead of the 6 (most do anyway, by the way, as they do for Camry, Accord, etc.).
Sounds pretty elitist (though I don't think you mean it that way) to suggest that the rest of us shouldn't be able to enjoy power if we want it.
Should we limit the speed and performance capabilities of the computers people are allowed to buy? After all, they use energy too. What about TVs?
EDIT: Reading / skimming your post again, it looks like you are primarily pointing out where things are headed (which is undoubtedly more or less true), not necessarily that it should / must go that way. You won't get much argument from many of us about wanting to keep weight down (so you don't NEED as much power to go silly fast) and so forth. Just so long as we still have the freedom to build the silly fast cars if we choose (but maybe 400 hp is silly fast, instead of 600 hp on a heavier car...)
I mean, some basic food, a place to s**t, and a place to sleep that keeps the weather off of us ought to do it, right?
So only rich folks should be able to enjoy a fast car?
And today's 400 hp cars do better on fuel (in normal driving) than the leviathons of old, offering far superior performance, safety, handling, emissions, etc. Not to mention, it isn't like everyone is buying the 400 hp versions of cars. There may be a lot more options than a few years ago at that power level, but they are still a vast, vast minority.
Meanwhile, yes, average horsepower has gone up across the board. And the market can (and is) adjusting by way of supply and demand. When people decide that the price of fuel is high enough, they'll opt for the 4 cylinder Malibu instead of the 6 (most do anyway, by the way, as they do for Camry, Accord, etc.).
Sounds pretty elitist (though I don't think you mean it that way) to suggest that the rest of us shouldn't be able to enjoy power if we want it.
Should we limit the speed and performance capabilities of the computers people are allowed to buy? After all, they use energy too. What about TVs?
EDIT: Reading / skimming your post again, it looks like you are primarily pointing out where things are headed (which is undoubtedly more or less true), not necessarily that it should / must go that way. You won't get much argument from many of us about wanting to keep weight down (so you don't NEED as much power to go silly fast) and so forth. Just so long as we still have the freedom to build the silly fast cars if we choose (but maybe 400 hp is silly fast, instead of 600 hp on a heavier car...)
Last edited by 96_Camaro_B4C; May 19, 2009 at 07:03 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 666
From: Stockton, Ca. USA
OK - truth hurts.
I have said for years that we are at the 2nd peak of performance cars, and just like before - it will die. I have speculated that insurance companies will have their share of the blame, the government will have it's share, and the economy would do the rest. There is no single person to execute here - it's a movement, collective, en-masse.
I'm going to ask every one of you - one on one - to be very honest with yourself for just a second.
Do you really need 400hp to drive to work and back every day?
Do you really need 540hp to go out for dinner Saturday night with the wife and kids?
Do you really need 390hp to bring home groceries tonight?
Do you really need 455hp to run the packages to the post office?
Do you really need 500hp in the drag car you race at the local track on the weekend? (OK - this one was to see if you are paying attention!)
You see, we (especially Americans) are so spoiled and wasteful it is insane. We think it is our birthright to own a fast car, an SUV, and a toy in the garage. We think nothing about wasting gas, oil, and other resources because, well, we simply "want that vehicle". Yet again, we are our own worst enemy. We are greedy, self-centered humans that are letting the spoils of Pandora's Box get the best of us... again.
I have maintained, and will continue to maintain, that the automotive market is just in the beginnings of a major shift. One that will result in the elimination of many of the mainstays of the last 20 years. We are about to see vehicles that are much lighter, less powerful, and more eco-friendly. Try to be honest with yourself, and understand what you really NEED versus what you want to have for your everyday vehicle. Some of the folks on this board (in the "If there was no Camaro" thread) have already indicated that the new Camaro is no longer on their list of desired vehicles due to babies, job situation, etc. Those are the kinds of folks that are more in-tune with their actual needs as compared with their desires.
Now listen, it is TOTALLY OK to want a new Camaro SS. I want one - I swear I do. But is it at the top of my needs list? Nope. Nor should it be. Would a V6 be at the top of the needs list? Maybe not, but it sure is farther up the list than an SS. A 4-door or crossover would be further up the list for me than the V6 Camaro, as I have a family and appreciate the 4-doors alot.
This plays right into the economic plan that I have touted for the lineup as well. Exotic, big-engined performers are toys for people with money. They are not/should not be intended for mainstream volumes and daily-driver vehicles of the masses. I love them as much as anyone, but their existence is for a different purpose IMO.
Some of you guys can flame away at me all you like, but I speak the truth to you. I work in this industry, developing parts and systems for cars that are 2-3 years away from seeing the streets, and I am telling you what is coming. You can fight it or embrace it, but it IS coming.
In 5 years or so, I expect to see us bench-racing our upcoming 2800-lb ponycars that have I-4, I-5, and V6 engines with direct injection and power adders. A few years after that, we will be talking about adding low-weight capacitors for a short boost to the electric wheel motors and current/voltage-management programs to maximize our range while maintaining performance.
I have said for years that we are at the 2nd peak of performance cars, and just like before - it will die. I have speculated that insurance companies will have their share of the blame, the government will have it's share, and the economy would do the rest. There is no single person to execute here - it's a movement, collective, en-masse.
I'm going to ask every one of you - one on one - to be very honest with yourself for just a second.
Do you really need 400hp to drive to work and back every day?
Do you really need 540hp to go out for dinner Saturday night with the wife and kids?
Do you really need 390hp to bring home groceries tonight?
Do you really need 455hp to run the packages to the post office?
Do you really need 500hp in the drag car you race at the local track on the weekend? (OK - this one was to see if you are paying attention!
)You see, we (especially Americans) are so spoiled and wasteful it is insane. We think it is our birthright to own a fast car, an SUV, and a toy in the garage. We think nothing about wasting gas, oil, and other resources because, well, we simply "want that vehicle". Yet again, we are our own worst enemy. We are greedy, self-centered humans that are letting the spoils of Pandora's Box get the best of us... again.
I have maintained, and will continue to maintain, that the automotive market is just in the beginnings of a major shift. One that will result in the elimination of many of the mainstays of the last 20 years. We are about to see vehicles that are much lighter, less powerful, and more eco-friendly. Try to be honest with yourself, and understand what you really NEED versus what you want to have for your everyday vehicle. Some of the folks on this board (in the "If there was no Camaro" thread) have already indicated that the new Camaro is no longer on their list of desired vehicles due to babies, job situation, etc. Those are the kinds of folks that are more in-tune with their actual needs as compared with their desires.
Now listen, it is TOTALLY OK to want a new Camaro SS. I want one - I swear I do. But is it at the top of my needs list? Nope. Nor should it be. Would a V6 be at the top of the needs list? Maybe not, but it sure is farther up the list than an SS. A 4-door or crossover would be further up the list for me than the V6 Camaro, as I have a family and appreciate the 4-doors alot.
This plays right into the economic plan that I have touted for the lineup as well. Exotic, big-engined performers are toys for people with money. They are not/should not be intended for mainstream volumes and daily-driver vehicles of the masses. I love them as much as anyone, but their existence is for a different purpose IMO.
Some of you guys can flame away at me all you like, but I speak the truth to you. I work in this industry, developing parts and systems for cars that are 2-3 years away from seeing the streets, and I am telling you what is coming. You can fight it or embrace it, but it IS coming.
In 5 years or so, I expect to see us bench-racing our upcoming 2800-lb ponycars that have I-4, I-5, and V6 engines with direct injection and power adders. A few years after that, we will be talking about adding low-weight capacitors for a short boost to the electric wheel motors and current/voltage-management programs to maximize our range while maintaining performance.
Posts like this drive me nuts. First off this new set of regulations will be nad for performance cars period. No matter how you slice or dice it its not good.
You talk about what yopu really need. I agree we dont really need 500 hp cars to go to the store, but if you want to use that commie way of thinking, we could get rid of alot of things we dont need. Do we really need NASCAR, the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, video games, snow skiing, waterskiing, wakeboarding, motocross, 24 inch wheels..... I could go on and on. I look at it as another take away for our freedom as living as an American. We dont need a lot of things that we do, but that is why we enjoy life in America.
