Notes about 04-05 GTO and judge
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,954
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
Perhaps I can't bring up examples of Holden's recent rust proofing record (though they do use the same galvanized steel & paint process that has become pretty much standard GM-wide (including here in the US), but as far as road conditions, snow, etc, you seem to be making a case against cars, regardless of model.
I learned to drive on a RWD 1972 Impala in hilly Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, and I owned a 1975 Malibu there without posi-traction before FWD or SUVs were all over the place. Since then, I've also driven across country in the winter twice (once in a Mustang and once in a Thunderbird), as well as frequent trips to Tahoe & Reno in the winter while I lived in San Fran (ask anyone about I-80 west of Reno in the winter). The reason I mention this is because I don't want you to think I've never driven in snow or ice.
That being said, it snows in the northeast for about 3 months of the year, 4 in a bad year. People have been driving in that stuff with RWD w/o traction control till FWD then SUVs turned everyone into wusses without any driving skill (or common sense). If someone want's to base their car purchase on what happens 3 of 12 months annually, or never heard of the concept of snow tires, then it's unlikely they are interested in this site.
Regarding Holden's lack of success in Europe, it's safe to say there also is not 1 car from the United States that is successful in Europe, let alone Northern Europe (with all the FWD cars GM makes here, you would expect that).
Though Holdens are at least imported to England, there just simply isn't a market in gas-tax, size-tax heavy Europe for a Large V8 vehicle beyound Benz, Bimmers, & Jags (NO imported V8 cars...save Corvette, are selling more than a few dozen annually).
I also wouldn't say that Holdens are gas guzzlers. 2003 Mustang Cobras (16mpg city, 22mpg highway) ALSO have the gas guzzler tax and are selling fast(even automatic Mustang GTs barely pass with a 17/24 rating!!), so it seems that $300 or so is a non-issue. Especially if it's because it doesn't have that skip-shift, and it will have a shorter axle ratio.
BTW, if Monaro doesn't have traction control, they must have removed it since I drove it in July.
Monaro IS NOT a subsitute for Camaro or Firebird any more than a GTO was a subsitute for either car in the late 60s. Although it's only slightly larger than Cobra (and 5" shorter than Camaro) its a different class of car. I saw it the same way you did (potential replacement) but having seen one & driven it, if it's a replacement for anything, it's a Grand Prix GTP Coupe.
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Perhaps I can't bring up examples of Holden's recent rust proofing record (though they do use the same galvanized steel & paint process that has become pretty much standard GM-wide (including here in the US), but as far as road conditions, snow, etc, you seem to be making a case against cars, regardless of model.
I learned to drive on a RWD 1972 Impala in hilly Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, and I owned a 1975 Malibu there without posi-traction before FWD or SUVs were all over the place. Since then, I've also driven across country in the winter twice (once in a Mustang and once in a Thunderbird), as well as frequent trips to Tahoe & Reno in the winter while I lived in San Fran (ask anyone about I-80 west of Reno in the winter). The reason I mention this is because I don't want you to think I've never driven in snow or ice.
That being said, it snows in the northeast for about 3 months of the year, 4 in a bad year. People have been driving in that stuff with RWD w/o traction control till FWD then SUVs turned everyone into wusses without any driving skill (or common sense). If someone want's to base their car purchase on what happens 3 of 12 months annually, or never heard of the concept of snow tires, then it's unlikely they are interested in this site.
Regarding Holden's lack of success in Europe, it's safe to say there also is not 1 car from the United States that is successful in Europe, let alone Northern Europe (with all the FWD cars GM makes here, you would expect that).
Though Holdens are at least imported to England, there just simply isn't a market in gas-tax, size-tax heavy Europe for a Large V8 vehicle beyound Benz, Bimmers, & Jags (NO imported V8 cars...save Corvette, are selling more than a few dozen annually).
I also wouldn't say that Holdens are gas guzzlers. 2003 Mustang Cobras (16mpg city, 22mpg highway) ALSO have the gas guzzler tax and are selling fast(even automatic Mustang GTs barely pass with a 17/24 rating!!), so it seems that $300 or so is a non-issue. Especially if it's because it doesn't have that skip-shift, and it will have a shorter axle ratio.
BTW, if Monaro doesn't have traction control, they must have removed it since I drove it in July.
Monaro IS NOT a subsitute for Camaro or Firebird any more than a GTO was a subsitute for either car in the late 60s. Although it's only slightly larger than Cobra (and 5" shorter than Camaro) its a different class of car. I saw it the same way you did (potential replacement) but having seen one & driven it, if it's a replacement for anything, it's a Grand Prix GTP Coupe.
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2. Your '72 Impala and '75 Malibu didn't come from the factory with 18 inch rims! The automotive manufacturers have gone crazy with wide, low profile rubber in the past couple of years. All of the old '70s heaps were far BETTER WINTER CARS than their modern equivilents - narrow all- season tires with big tread depths actually worked well in snow. I personally subscribe to snow tires, but just try finding 17" and 18" snow tires. Sure, you could go with smaller diameter wheels, but that doesn't work because of the oversized brake rotors. I guess what I'm saying is that traction and stability control are pretty much neccessary on the morning drive to work after 6 inches of snowfall.
3. Sure the 2003 Mustang Cobra is a gas guzzler. When Car and Driver reviewed the Cobra the test showed 13MPG, the same as the test fuel economy for the 2003 Lincoln Navigator. There again, the Cobra is undoubtably a quicker car than the 2003 GTO - and made in North American. While I'm not in the market for a Cobra, this car would interest me alot more than the 2003 GTO.
4. The Grand Prix GTP didn't need to be replaced because it didn't sell. I can't imagine very many people saving one of the current Grand Prix coupes as a future classic, and the same goes for the 2003 GTO. There again, the 2003 Cobra will sell, and people will make the effort to save and treasure these cars.
5. Maybe I am criticising what cars have become - low ground clearance slugs with rubber band tires and zero winter drivability. Maybe winter only lasts 3 to 4 months, but it seems pretty long when you're driving in the mountains. If the GTO isn't fast enough to replace my Camaro as a summer car, and is too helpless and antiquated (no stability control) to be my everyday driver, what good is it?
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Joined: Mar 2001
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From: The Golden State
Many good points.
I myself don't suscribe to 18+ inch wheels. I personally don't feel or see an advantage over the cheaper (and easier to find snow tires for) 16 & 17 inchers, but that's just me. In all other cases, I can see traction control as a big plus. Just the same Monaro (and likely GTO) has them.
I have a feeling the GTO vs Cobra debate will boil down to a "performance vs handling", "spartan vs fancy" in car mags & buyers in the future. My complaint about Monaro (
) is that there is too much "gee wiz" stuff on it. Electric seat tilt among other things to me is too much.
Grand Prix coupe still has alot of fans (like Firebird) dispite the poor sales of both. GTO may be a good bridge between the 2.
I myself don't suscribe to 18+ inch wheels. I personally don't feel or see an advantage over the cheaper (and easier to find snow tires for) 16 & 17 inchers, but that's just me. In all other cases, I can see traction control as a big plus. Just the same Monaro (and likely GTO) has them.
I have a feeling the GTO vs Cobra debate will boil down to a "performance vs handling", "spartan vs fancy" in car mags & buyers in the future. My complaint about Monaro (
) is that there is too much "gee wiz" stuff on it. Electric seat tilt among other things to me is too much. Grand Prix coupe still has alot of fans (like Firebird) dispite the poor sales of both. GTO may be a good bridge between the 2.
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