Back to the styling question. Does anyone here want anybody from the Pontiac styling department anywhere near the Monaro/GTO? Here's one vote for no!

Oh, and after they added FWD and the 3100 V6, they would have to address the serious lack of plastic body cladding on the Monaro to bring it up to spec as a GTO .

 

I know more than you'd think about Holden's "engineering abilities." Perhaps you don't remember that DAEWOO equipped their Leganza and Nubira models with Holden produced 4-cylinder units. Those particular engines were exceedingly rough, and oddly, not as reliable as you would think. You wouldn't think that Holden had very much engineering input in those lumps, especially since they were Opel designs, but somebody really wasn't on the job!

I personally regard Holden the same way as Isuzu - marginally better than the Korean brands. Moreover, I'm not about to make a twenty hours flight to reappraise this overseas rubbish. Perhaps a Holdens VT is good enough for the Middle Eastern consumer, and even the occasional South Africa, but I'm not having any of it.

 

I believe that you're being a little harsh here, without really acknowledging some of the facts. The engines that Holden exports to Daewoo are based on the Family 2 design that date back to the late 1970s. Over the years the engines have been revised to include 4 valve cylinders and DOHC, but money hasn't really been spent to turn them into smooth engines. Balance shafts were even a relatively recent addition.

Holden hasn't really had the need to spend money on updating the engines, since they're not fitted to any locally produced vehicles. They just go into cheap Korean ****-boxes. Holden just builds them. And besides which, it's a bit hard to condemn Holden for the reliability of the Family-2 engines -- they were **** when they first made and they've kept up that tradition. And it didn't matter where they were made. Anyone remember the Cadillac Cimmaron?

That's good, because J.D. Powers have some things to say about Daewoo quality. In 2000 The Leganza beat out the Hyundai Sonata, Volkswagen Jetta, Pontiac Grand Am and Oldsmobile Alero to get 3rd place in the entry midsize segment. It was beaten only by the Nissan Altima and Chevrolet Malibu.
The Lanos finished second in its category.

They place Korean brands ahead of their American made competitors? That doesn't say much for your claims.

Furthermore, I know of two American car enthusiasts who have been to Australia and driven our local Holden and Ford products. One of them is GuionM here, and the other is a poster over at LS1.com -- Absolut. He's now living in Australia due to his job. Both guys have been positive about the quality of the Aussie product. You just need to check some of Guion's posts here to see that. Here's what Absolut had to say about Holden's, anyway:

"The quality, from the bottom model to the top of the line HSV, seems way better than anything GMC offers in the States. Corvette comes close.

The cars are great looking all around. Maybe it's because of the import competition, but it's great none the less. VERY nice interior, aluminium door handles, suade/leather inserts, almost Recaro type seating!! Very good!!!"

And so you don't accuse me of making that up, here's the link to the page where he said that.



[This message has been edited by Lightspeed (edited August 30, 2002).]

 

Response To Lightspeed:

I can understand your inclination to "fly the flag." The fact remains that Holden is largely a product of your country's restrictive trading practices. The same goes for the Australian operations run by Ford, Mitsubishi and Toyota. If you take away all of the tariffs and anti-foriegn consumer sentiment, there wouldn't be a domestic automotive industry "Down Under."

Granted, Holden has done well in their attempts to unite Opel floorpans with American mechanicals for the last couple of decades. The fact remains that Holden hasn't engineered a complete car since the HZ Kingswood of the late 1970s! A product turned out by a shoestring operation is hardly an auspicious choice in the American market - especially when that product will be far dearer than credible German and Japanese competitors.

My hope is that the eventual successors to the VY Holdens are "clean-sheet-of-paper" designs, with even more substantial North-American engineering input, component manufacture, or even U.S. assembly. Short of such a drastic change in mentality, I doubt that Holdens will conform to global standards of safety, build quality or reliability.

 

What gives you the impression that a clean sheet design = improved quality, etc ... ?

Again, I'd love to hear about all these North American designed cars that have been sucessful the world over ... Ford's biggest sellers in Europe are designed by Ford Europe - same goes for GM. Eplision and Gamma are both products of GM Europe ... You accuse us of being flag flyers, yet your comments seem far more parochial than anyone elses ...

Finally - lets look at a clear example. The Toyota Avalon was released here about a year ago. The same car as the last model from the US. It's "credible design" and "global standard of safety, build quality and reliability" led it to become one of the biggest mistakes Toyota has ever made in this country. The trail of red ink that followed Avalon is a source of great embarrasement for Toyota.

Holden is the most profitable division in GM, has the most flexible production plant in GM (if not amoungst the best in the world - it produces over 30 models from one single factory), and continues to produce cars that meet or exceed global standards of safety, build quality or reliability. I stand by that statement until I can be proved otherwise.

 

Australia has a tariff rate of 15% on imported vehicles, which will fall to 10% in 2005 and 0% in 2010. It is low by international standards, but much larger than the USA or Canada, for example. There's no doubt, too, that Australia's car manufacturers were protected by too high barriers for too long. The quality of our vehicles suffered as a result. But that is not to say, however, that the local manufacturers exist simply because of tariffs.

Lower tariffs mean more choices for consumers (at better cost) and the local manufacturers still perform well. Furthermore, 3 of the 4 local manufacturers export, with Toyota being the largest. I think it's premature to write-off Australian made cars before you have a chance to sample the product.

Locally produced cars, by the way, account for just over 25% of the Australian new car market. To claim that there's a strong anti-foreign car sentiment in Australia is a bit silly.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Granted, Holden has done well in their attempts to unite Opel floorpans with American mechanicals for the last couple of decades. The fact remains that Holden hasn't engineered a complete car since the HZ Kingswood of the late 1970s! A product turned out by a shoestring operation is hardly an auspicious choice in the American market - especially when that product will be far dearer than credible German and Japanese competitors.

You're right, Holden hasn't engineered a complete car since the 70s. VE will no doubt go some way to arresting that concern. But to think that the Australian market is somehow less mature to accept hybridized designs like Commodore isn't smart. The Australian market is very competitive and Commodore has done as well as it has because it can deliver the things this market wants. And they are things like roominess, reliability, build quality, good looks and performance.

You're making a whole bunch of assumptions about the cars and the Australian auto market based upon information that is incomplete until you drive one of the cars, or until you come here and see the diversity of the market. Until then, don't try and tell me what Holden does is somehow inferior.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">My hope is that the eventual successors to the VY Holdens are "clean-sheet-of-paper" designs, with even more substantial North-American engineering input, component manufacture, or even U.S. assembly. Short of such a drastic change in mentality, I doubt that Holdens will conform to global standards of safety, build quality or reliability.

I hope VE, when it launches in 2005, is even better. But to claim that current Holdens don't already conform to international standards of safety, reliability or build quality without providing some evidence to support the claim is a bit low.

 

I guess time will tell how good the quality of the GTO will be. I don't think it matters at all what percentage of the car was designed or engineered where, as long as the car is appealing and the quality is good.

What I *do* know is that there were only three vehicles in GM's North American lineup that I found appealing: Corvette, F-body, and CTS. However, I find the bread and butter products in the GM Australia lineup appealing. Then there are the various HSVs, etc.

I'll take a GM Mideast Lumina over our Lumina (or Impala) any day.

Bring on the Aussies!

jeremy

 

I can't add too much to what Decromin & Lightspeed have said, and it's a shame that you are so closed to looking at Holden (it is NOT the same company it was 10 years ago, let alone the 1980's when it was on the verge of collaspe).

Austrailian cars are likely the toughest cars in the world (the only other cars that were sucessful in the harsh middle east from GM were the body-on-frame Cadillac & Caprice).

Cooling components, air conditioning components, interior materials & assembly, fit & finish is far and away more durable and well done than anything here in the US, save (maybe!) our CTS. Austraila's east coast is a mix of our east coast an bit of California, but cars there also have to be troublefree in the rough outback where breaking down in many places would be fatal (no exageration).

Regarding the tarrifs, the entire annual Austrailan car market is smaller than the yearly sales of the F100. With countries like Korea & Japan closeby, ready to dump cheap cars at a moment's notice (an experience we had in the US in the late 70s-early 80s) can't say I blame them. Alot of us had the same view here. But Holden now not only has the best selling cars in Austraila, their cars are exported to places where FWD cars with cheap interiors dare not go.

The Avalon was mentioned. It was a car that by US standards was a good, well made car. So is Taurus. But both cars have a "delicate" reputation down under. Cobra is judged to be very cheaply made, and a ripoff compared to the similarly priced Monaro, and rightly so.

Just the same, to be fair, I would like everyone to wait till the GTO gets here (it will be at the NAIAS and LAIAS in just 4 more months), check it out for yourselves, and then form your own opinions on the car itself. Not where it was made or who did the engineering or whatever preconcieved (or wrong) notions you have about the country it was made in.

I'll bet alot of people will be plenty surprised.

 

redzed
how can a car that sucks be compared to BMW and Mercedes?? and beat them in fit and finsish and also road test?? come out on or near the top against them??
from what I hear Holden is the golden goose for GM to get back into building great RWD cars..
and what is a Holden Monaro..isnt the whole drivetrain from US? so its just going to be the body from there..who cares..the GTO is something GM needs..and if the fit and finish are good well that just ups the standard of GM when they arrive..I thing if Holden set up shop here it would sell like hotcakes..look at what they have..its perfect for alot of the high matinence cars routes..Taxi, Police, Fire, park service..something GM gave up on..
I wish we had all of Holdens products here NOW!

------------------
thanks
David Morgan
the "Over Drive Gang"
94 Z28 A4, K/N FIPK!,AIT Relocator,TB bypass,99 SS MAF Airfoil,HPP+, Shiftkit,Cutout, Flowmaster 80 series American Thunder Exhaust with 3" Chrome tips GMS Strut Tower Brace, GMS Sub Frame Connectors AND 93-96 GM Export Tail Lights! GTS Headlight Covers and Tail covers.

http://overdrive-gang.tripod.com

Check it out !! you might know some of the cars, or my friends.and a few of their rides frequent the pages of muscle car mags

Congrats Tony L. of the "ODG" Owner of The BBC 6SP 81 Malibu

Making Hot Rod Mags top 10 cars of 2001!!

 

Okay, okay...don't get too carried away. Holden aren't BMW competitors, and Holden fall behind the quality of BMW's products (like most manufacturers do).

What Holden does do, however, is build pretty decent RWD V8-powered cars. They're relatively cheap, pretty reliable and well put together (though not up to Germanic standards). Suitably tweaked (in-house of course) these cars become very good sports sedans, able to mix it with BMW's best, but I wouldn't claim that they beat them.

Not knocking Holden (or the local Ford product for that matter), but a Commodore generally isn't a BMW competitor.

 

All of the examples of "desert" engineering have little relevance in the portion of the United States where we are afflicted by salted winter highways. I just as concerned with corrosion as powerful air conditioning. Perhaps the success of Holden designs in the Middle East, South Africa, and Brazil has precious little meaning for some of us!

Where I come from, it is hardly surprising that sedans have given away to full-sized trucks and SUVS. Our high levels of snow fall are amplified by declining standards of highway maintainance - snowplows don't operate operate in some areas unless the crews are paid overtime. Since vehicle handling and corrosion resistance are the two deciding factors in vehicle ownership where I live, the Holden is too much of an unknown quantity to be successful.

I could put aside all of my reservations if these cars had been sold successfully in Northern Europe, but heaven forbid that I take on an unknown quantity. The complete absence of any stability control system in the Monaro just underlines the facts at hand.

The anticipated GTO is neither special enough, or fast enough, to justify operation as a "sunny-day" replacement for my Camaro Z28. Similarly, the Holdens would seem to be unsuitable for my type of everyday driving. (For me, the dire fuel economy and laughable pricing aren't insurpassable deterents.)

 

Any else notice redzeds posts gradually declining into bigotry?



You seem to have enough anti-foriegn sentiment for everyone.

Anyways, I think you're probably right, the Monaro/GTO looks like it will be a really lousy winter car. I doubt it'd be much fun at all to drive in the snow.

I don't think a 350hp RWD car is made to drive in the snow, really.

I also agree that it's too expensive.

If it's not right for you as a car, that's great, but I'm seeing enough derogatory comments towards Australia and other countries that I'm offended, and I'm from the US.

------------------
Jason

<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>

<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>

[This message has been edited by MunchE (edited September 02, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by MunchE (edited September 02, 2002).]

 

He's clearly got a bug up his butt over something - not worth arguing with anymore IMHO ...

 

It isn't "anti-foriegn" to be critical of some imported cars. Korean cars have had historical problems with reliability, resale value, and design. Daewoo has disappeared from the U.S. market. If memory serves correct, Isuzu stopped building passenger cars over ten years ago - just trucks from then onward. None of these failed cars were absolutely terrible - the Daewoos were well styled - but they serve to underline the pitfalls in being a new importer to the United States. Even the Australian-built Mercury Capri was botched by an excruciating long developement lead time more than any real quality issues.

There again, I was always amazed by how Rover could take Acura Legend mechanicals and produce the ill-starred Sterling for the U.S. market. I am still haunted by the memory of how a British-built Acura Legend could be so much less successful than the genuine, Japaness-built article.

I'm not saying that the new GTO will be another Pontiac Lemans. (That particular, Daewoo-produced import was reviled in the automotive press, but they should have blamed the German (Opel) chassis design more than the Korean build quality.) It's just that GTO isn't as affordable or exciting as the outgoing F-bodies. GM gave us a proven product with at a bargain price, and the Monaro/GTO suffers in comparison.



[This message has been edited by redzed (edited September 02, 2002).]

 

Perhaps I can't bring up examples of Holden's recent rust proofing record (though they do use the same galvanized steel & paint process that has become pretty much standard GM-wide (including here in the US), but as far as road conditions, snow, etc, you seem to be making a case against cars, regardless of model.

I learned to drive on a RWD 1972 Impala in hilly Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, and I owned a 1975 Malibu there without posi-traction before FWD or SUVs were all over the place. Since then, I've also driven across country in the winter twice (once in a Mustang and once in a Thunderbird), as well as frequent trips to Tahoe & Reno in the winter while I lived in San Fran (ask anyone about I-80 west of Reno in the winter). The reason I mention this is because I don't want you to think I've never driven in snow or ice.

That being said, it snows in the northeast for about 3 months of the year, 4 in a bad year. People have been driving in that stuff with RWD w/o traction control till FWD then SUVs turned everyone into wusses without any driving skill (or common sense). If someone want's to base their car purchase on what happens 3 of 12 months annually, or never heard of the concept of snow tires, then it's unlikely they are interested in this site.

Regarding Holden's lack of success in Europe, it's safe to say there also is not 1 car from the United States that is successful in Europe, let alone Northern Europe (with all the FWD cars GM makes here, you would expect that).

Though Holdens are at least imported to England, there just simply isn't a market in gas-tax, size-tax heavy Europe for a Large V8 vehicle beyound Benz, Bimmers, & Jags (NO imported V8 cars...save Corvette, are selling more than a few dozen annually).

I also wouldn't say that Holdens are gas guzzlers. 2003 Mustang Cobras (16mpg city, 22mpg highway) ALSO have the gas guzzler tax and are selling fast(even automatic Mustang GTs barely pass with a 17/24 rating!!), so it seems that $300 or so is a non-issue. Especially if it's because it doesn't have that skip-shift, and it will have a shorter axle ratio.

BTW, if Monaro doesn't have traction control, they must have removed it since I drove it in July.

Monaro IS NOT a subsitute for Camaro or Firebird any more than a GTO was a subsitute for either car in the late 60s. Although it's only slightly larger than Cobra (and 5" shorter than Camaro) its a different class of car. I saw it the same way you did (potential replacement) but having seen one & driven it, if it's a replacement for anything, it's a Grand Prix GTP Coupe.