FUTURE_OF_GM

I've never argued that Pontiac had some killer cars. But EVERY car on that list is FLAWED in some major way.

GM has not put it's best effort forward with Pontiac, like it or not. The Trans Am was unlivable for most and priced too high for the market it targeted. The GTO didn't sell because of it's styling. If you seriously think GM was targeting previous GTO buyers with that car, you're delusional. Their target was euro-humpers and the car didn't sell to those people because it was woefully out dated. The G6 coupe had a stick?!?! Who knew? I certainly didn't and I'm a GM enthusiast. Which brings me to another point; the marketing budget for Pontiac must be something like what, $500? YOU GET WHAT YOU GIVE, and if GM doesn't invest in it's divisions then it need not expect to return a profit. The consumer has to be EDUCATED about what, especially a division as off the radar as Pontiac, has to offer. And while we're at it; the G6 is not aggressive enough to pick up old Grand Am buyers, not to mention the interior is crap AND the car is pricey as hell (especially when compared to the old Grand Am) The Solstice is flawed because of the compromises in trunk space and livability. The GP GXP, while impressive, wasn't marketed at all. And if you think hardcore Pontiac people are not going to laugh at a FWD "performance sedan" then whatever. And that's not even considering the horrible interior GM bolted into the car.

I think the G8 and G8 ST will do well, (If they can over come the staid looks and, yet again, not so good interior) and if you reference my posts at C&G, I agree that the "performance image" of Pontiac needs to be reinvented asap. But to unload on the Pontiac loyalists (The few of us that are left) about not buying the second rate offerings GM has tossed the division is a bit unfair IMO.

Nobody asked GM to do that. It's the plan they presented to us.

Did you find the fourth generation V6 Camaro desireable? (That's a loaded statement anyway, given the clientele of the car) Do you find the current G6 and *gasp* G6 GXP desireable?

The Solstice GXP; sure, the G8; meh, it's passable. The G6 GXP; give me a break! And that's Pontiac's volume car, the car that is supposed to keep the division viable. Neither the base car, nor the "performance version" is desireable. Looks like GM doesn't get it, not us enthusiasts.

How much of that has been marketed? NONE... The Solstice GXP is a remarkable car, yet it has received ZERO exposure, especially touting it's performance nature. There are more enthusiasts out here than die hard GM people and the company needs to realize that and maybe, I dunno, MARKET their cars to them.

BMW.... Chevrolet up until the last Malibu died, and maybe even now... Dodge...

I'll admit, I haven't bought a Pontiac. I haven't even purchased a new car yet. But I am the future and I'd like the choice to buy a Pontiac (As would MANY in my age group)

RussStang

Well, Future of GM probably has said all that really needs to be said about Pontiac's case. Now the question is what direction is Pontiac going to go in now?

dav305z

I'm actually in total agreement with you, but just because I like seeing my words posted on the internet, will expand on this point a little more.

I believe it was Charlie who wondered a while back if GM would have been better off using the money it spent on the GTO to give the G6 what it really needed (DOHC V6 from the beginning, Aura or even Saab-like suspension tuning, and a nicer interior). That car would have gotten plenty of Altima and Accord trade-ins, not to mention people coming with the 98-03 Grand Prix's.

You said the base Bonneville was a piece of crap, and it was. But you should have driven a GXP or even an uplevel SLE. It was basically a bargain-priced Seville with a cheaper interior. The Grand Prix would have done fine if GM had just dropped the rental fleet base model, and sold only the 3.8 S/C GT and the GXP.

When other Pontiac enthusiasts and I talk about the need for more performance vehicles, we're not saying the brand needs more purebred sports cars. Rather, it needs good, solid mainstream cars that happen to be really sporty -this is what Nissan and Mazda do so well, and what Pontiac used to do better than anyone else (most notably the original GTO package). Purpose built cars like the G8 and Solstice are nice, but given a choice, I think most of us would take a lineup full of properly tuned G6's, G5's, and Torrents.

RussStang

And therein is the problem with GM's "performance" division. A basic G6 is not a sporty car. At all. Neither is a G5. Mazda is building their vehicles so even their basic pieces of crap have some semblance of sportiness to them. Even a no option, lowest level BMW is sure to still be a fun car to drive.

Pontiac's enthusiasts (are there really actual Pontiac enthusiasts anymore?) aren't turning their backs on GM, GM is trying to pull one over on the general public. You can tell people how great your stuff is until you are blue in the face, but if it isn't really that great, that it doesn't mean much in the end.

HAZ-Matt

Exactly.

teal98

That seems to be a huge leap of faith. I don't think the DOHC V6 or a Saab-like suspension would have garnered a significant number of Altima/Accord trade-ins.

Saturn and Chevy and Saab are aimed at that market. The market for tuned FWD family cars is not all that large, and there's a huge amount of competition there. The #1 differentiator is reputation for reliability. After that, it's just one big crowed market with lots of performance packages.

The GTO and G8 have RWD, and the market for that is not crowded.

dav305z

I don't think that it's a leap of faith at all to say that a sportier G6 would have competed better with a sporty mid-size sedan like the Altima.

And I don't know why you would say the number 1 differentiator is reliability. Sure, reliability is important, but just about every family car sold today offers strong reliability. Do you think people really comparison shop the Camry, Accord, and Altima based on their nearly identical reliability scores?

With a distinctly sporty G6, GM could actually leverage its brand portfolio to attack the mid-size segment from multiple fronts. GM has the Malibu to go after the joe-average buyer who wants room, comfort, and a touch of style, and they have the Aura for people who want refinement (probably a large segment of Accord buyers). But they have nothing to compete with those who desire performance (a huge chunk of Accord buyers) and more flamboyant style (likely the majority of Altima buyers.). I don't think the Saab 9-3 competes in this segment at all given that it starts more than 10k higher than any of these cars,.

How much do you think it would really cost GM to take the already excellent handling suspension we see in the Malibu, and tune it up with better struts and thicker sway bars? Throw in a more powerful engine, which could be no more than a better breathing 3.6L, and you have a real addition to GM's midsize range. It also would give Pontiac a better chance to thrive in the current market than a RWD sport truck (or for that matter, a Trans Am).

Z284ever

Not much, I'd imagine. It's all on the GM parts shelf. And that's the pity of it all.

Last of a Breed

And that's one of the things that really bothers me about all this. GM already has the capability there to make Pontiac a more focused performance brand, and yet they do not. I'm hoping the plans are to focus resources and energy on Pontiac in the near future like GM has done with Saturn.

Z284ever

We should start a thread on building the "ideal" G6 line up with only off the shelf pieces.

FUTURE_OF_GM

Excellent post!

FUTURE_OF_GM

You said it!

That's why a potential phase out of Pontiac annoys me so badly (Much worse than the Oldsmobile phase out, although I hated every minute of it)

GM at this point in time has at it's disposal, the ability to make Pontiac stand out and come back to life very quickly. I just don't understand why the deal isn't finalized. My only guess is internal politics.

For example; the G6. It was a HORRIBLE decision to make the G6 carry an OHV 3.5L V6 in the segment it was supposed to compete in. GM had the other motor on the shelf, why wasn't IT put into the G6? Oh, right, so they (GM) could sell a handful (literally) of Auras.

I'm no Saturn hater and I want them to proper as well but not at the expense of a much BETTER opportunity/division.

Last of a Breed

You know, that would only depress me more. You and others on this board are alot more knowledgeable than me about all of what GM has available, but I've seen so many threads regarding all the GM divisions and how to improve them with everything in the parts bin that you would think is common sense but yet is never done. I know GM has all of its red beauracratic red tape to go through, but seriously I think members here can devise better business plans and engineer better cars.

teal98

At this point, if we really wanted to spend the time on this discussion, we'd need a meta-discussion about what "sporty" means, and which sporty attribute the Altima has that the G6 is lacking. I sure don't know.

But accepting for the moment that we may mean two different things, I would have said that the G6 was already plenty sporty, and that sportier would not have helped.

I said "reputation for reliability". I think lots of people buy Honda and Toyota (not as much for Nissan) based on reputation, whether first hand (their last Chevy had problems and they've had three Toyotas since with good reliability) or second hand (they read CR or their friends tell them to buy Toyota).

I don't think what you're suggesting would help much at all. It'd be better to put that effort into the Saturn and the Chevy. An all-RWD plan would have made Pontiac substantially differentiated from other midsize cars. It might not drive high volumes, but a lot of the volume would be incremental (steal from BMW), rather than just stealing from Chevy and Saturn.

dav305z

Yes, I realize this is a discussion in itself, but I think you're failing to see the forest for the trees. There are subjective performance figures that would say the G6 is about mid-pack, but most importantly, the G6 isn't that much fun to drive, while other cars (Altima, Accord, Passat) are. I know this is a subjective statement, one I'm basing on personal experience as well as reviews (http://caranddriver.com/reviews/comp...pontiac_g6_gtp), but people are subjective in their car purchases.

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That's certainly a factor in car purchases. It's not the only factor, however. Cars - even family sedans - are emotional purchases. Otherwise people would not buy nearly as many cars as they do. Afterall, as you point out, these new cars are quite reliable, and don't exactly need to be replaced every three years.


We could debate the merits and demerits of a RWD lineup, but the bottom line is your talking a big investment (new platforms) for limited gains (as you say, low volumes).

I say affordable, sporty cars sell. The continued existence and success of Nissan, Mazda, and to some degree Honda and Scion seem to assert this point. Pontiac makes sporty cars that by many measures are not quite up to the competitors from said brands. I think a minimal investment (swaybars, struts, engine mods) will turn out big returns.