How about just GXP then? Like there is a little bit of Corvette in every SS. This car could be the epitomy of Pontiac.

 

I don't think it would be a "Solstice" type vehicle....maybe more like an RX8 or 240SX or Alfa Romeo GTV. Again, just speculating.

Everytime I hear someone say, If you deviate from 'X' formula then leave it dead....what I hear is, "I want to make sure Pontiac is killed off".

 

That is really easy to say that, but that is not the case.

It is not a matter of deviating from a formula, it is attaching a name to a vehicle it should NOT represent. No one is saying that a smaller Pontiac coupe should not be built or it should not be powered by a turbo ecotech, but don't call it a Firebird. It's not that hard. That car is simply NOT a Firebird. Do you really think that it would be a smart or add sales if such a vehicle was called "Firebird"? People who know and like the Firebird will be pissed off and the people who don't care about the Firebird history will buy the vehicle if it is called another name anyway, so what is the point?

The bottom line is, you would have been really pissed off if the type of vehicle you describe was called "Camaro" so don't say people want Pontiac to die if they don't call a vehicle that is clearly not a Firebird, a "Firebird". I wouldn't have said that you wanted to kill Chevrolet off if you didn't want said vehicle to be called "Camaro".

 

So a 'real' Firebird must have a smallblock Chevy?

Chevy isn't at risk of closing down. And Camaro is not Firebird.

I'll come back to this later..................

 

I think a Firebird that is "modern" in every sense of the word (which may include a high output motor that is not a V8) would not be a bad thing.

 

I guess my question would be:

Why do you think an RX-8-like vehicle would benefit from the use of the Firebird name versus a new/another name?

I think the best use of the Firebird name would be on a coupe that is on the same platform as the Camaro but with a very modern design in and out and different proportions and possibly different motors as long as there is still a V8. This would draw people into the showrooms who are looking for a very modern vehicle in and out, just like the RX-8-like vehicle, but would not alianate everyone who once liked the Firebird.

If the Firebird name is used on another type of vehicle, then it is the last nail in the coffin for the Firebird as a fire-breathing sports/muscle car.

Another thing, what would this "new" Firebird have that would make it a true Firebird or even remotely relatable to a Firebird? What styling would be used to link this to a Firebird?

 

Maybe I have a different perspective, since I personally feel the "REAL" Firebird died after the 2nd gen, eventhough my wife had a 3rd gen Firebird.

If we are to believe Jack Keebler's comments about the family of RWD cars....a 2+2 coupe would be one of the proposals. If I were calling the shots for Pontiac, and I was getting a Pontiac RWD, 2+2, sporty coupe which also might share it's high performance powertrains with Solstice....I'd have to be some kind of moron not to tap into the Firebird brand equity. It would be a marketing advantage too good to ignore. I would put the Firebird name on this stylish, fast, high performance coupe in a heartbeat. Even if, how many?...1,000?, 5,000? enthusiasts were pissed.

Anyway, regardless of Keebler's comments, the engineering and manufacturing is just not there to support a Kappa based family of 2+2 and 2+3 cars. The alternative is to create a new Kappa replacement architecture. Price tag? Maybe 1 billion dollars, so maybe we shouldn't hold our breathes.

I guess we can go back to talking about Zeta GTO sedans.

 

I agree. I don't see why a Firebird can only be a Camaro clone or a Camaro with a slightly different shape. I would expect the Camaro to be fully modern and have the best V8 available, which doesn't leave much room for the Firebird. Maybe seat heaters and a power passenger seat?

I think a RWD sport coupe with a powerful turbo 4 would be just fine as a Firebird. It's a great name. Doesn't it deserve to be out of Camaro's shadow and be a truly unique car?

If it does somehow come back as a variation on the Camaro, that'd be okay too, but I don't see that as the only way that it can come back. I'd rather have "Firebird" than "G5" or whatever.

 

Well, a different alternative to the Camaro is what the Firebird is. It is a similar vehicle that offers at least what the Camaro does. Doing what you describe to the Firebird is like calling the current Malibu a Chevelle. You are talking about a complete departure from what the car is. Again, I am not against a small 2 seat or 2+2 coupe that uses a modded ecotech, but there is no reason to call it Firebird. That is slapping a name on a vehicle that it isn't, and that type of a move is very transparent. It is a move of desparation, like in the 80's when economy cars had legendary nameplates.

 

1. It's just a name. A good name, but just a name.

2. The Malibu was a Chevelle back in the day.

The way I see it, a Firebird is a sporty car. Now you probably wouldn't want to put that label on a sedan, but anything sporty is fine.

 

I think we both know that this is not the case. If a name was just a name, then there wouldn't have been so much hoopla to get the Chevy coupe to be called "Camaro".


I know this and that is why I said the "current Malibu".


It just seems that the attitude is that "oh well, we Chevy fans have the Camaro so do whatever you like with the Firebird". I can't think of a better way to use the Firebird name than to make it a totally modern muscle/sports coupe now that there are only retro muscle cars, except for the soon-to-be-gone GTO. Pontiac is all about new names recently, so a new name for a totally new type of car seems logical to me.

If you think there was some upset people and negative press about the current GTO being called "GTO", then this would be far worse.

 

OK!... Whoever said to call the Solstice a Firebird is a flippin dumb idiot!!

That is all...

 

Yes, well that's possible.

I guess what you're saying is that a modern coupe with a turbo 4 should use some new name, saving Firebird for a car with a V8 option, also making the Firebird a car with no retro. Of course, then people will complain that it doesn't look like the old models.

It'll be interesting to see if GM is actually able to implement their unique-models-for-each-division plan.

 

Okay this is the way I see it. Camaro and Firebird both have tremendous equity as being sporty coupes. Camaro has a lot more; it is the second or third most recognizable nameplate in the world, and has/had a lot more enthusiasts clamoring for its return than just about any other car. When you have that kind of built in fanbase, you just can't ignore it.

Times are changing, and Pontiac's case for survival is looking lean and tough. Pontiac's current lineup is getting degraded by stale product that looks to be around for a long time still [GP specifically] and lame Chevy rebadges. Pontiac needs unique, outstanding product that will get it noticed in the marketplace and create a wave of attention and sales.

With that criteria in mind, would another V8 coupe like the Camaro cause another stir like the Camaro concept? Or would the media begin to question GM's sanity in bringing yet another V8 coupe at a time when gasoline prices are still unstable and yet again rising?

Would a Pontiac with the Firebird name create some buzz. Yes, enthusiasts and Firebird enthusiasts alike would be happy to see something. Would people be upset if the Firebird name were attached to a smaller coupe, a la 240sx or Probe-sized? Firebird enthusiasts would be. How many of you are there? Now, logically speaking answer that question again, just how many Firebird enthusiasts are there.

Of that small group, relatively speaking, how many of them would actually be upset to see the car return, albeit with a slightly different formula?

What if in the end, what you get is a car with incredible aggressive styling [my favorite is the second gen, but you all can fight over that] and the funnest, most tossable, Lotus-like, high-winding 5 second Firebird ever?

What would you say then?

Bottom line: Pontiac needs to create a business case for unique product. Unfortunately, though the truth is this small lineup is very far out, and just mere speculation completely, so all this i laid out is a moot point. Any Firebird we're gonna see, won't be for some time, or it'll be a hasty, and I mean hasty, unless GM finds a treasure chest of $10B, hasty rebadge of Camaro.

 

Coming from the perspective of someone who was never around to see the Firebird "die with the 2nd gen", I can say right now I do not want to see a I4 turbo. The Firebirds I grew up with always had much more rawness to me, and it is initially the F-Body I tried to buy. Ended up getting the Camaro, but I still see the Firebirds being much more aggressive, from a design standpoint. I really think Pontiac could use a nice turbo4 rwd coupe, but leave the Firebird name off of it. If they could make a more desirable G6, it would be great, but slapping the Firebird name on a performance G6 model would be ludicrous to me.

I think the Camaro concept is good looking, but I am still disappointed somewhat with how the car is predominantly styled around the 69s, especially the front end. A good modern rwd Firebird v8 would be something I would take more than a look at, if done well. Would this cannibalize the Camaro's sales and budget? I don't know, I don't have the business politically flair many of the members of this board seem to have, but I would love to see a completely modern pony car in the near future. I don't want to see Pontiac die, but throwing the Firebird name on something just to try and make it sell is not the way to get Pontiac up and running again.

For the "performance division" of GM I would love to see

-Solstice
-A better performing G6 (I still would love to see the AWD V6 turbo G6 GXP, maybe minus the dumb alphanumeric G6 nomenclature. probably not going to happen though)
-A rwd Grand Prix sedan
-A rwd Coupe: which is where the Firebird could step in again. The GTO has been here only a very short time, and despite the positive press this car gets, it has not taken as well to the automotive community as GM obviously would have liked it to.