Thank you Jim for tossing the finishing touch on that debate.

 

Consider this: maybe the defination has changed over the years.

The pony car term when coined did not mean small cars with big engines. It meant small Mustang-like vehicles. Sporty, great handling, and fun to drive. Muscle cars were big cars with big engines. The Boss 351 and Camaro Z/28 were never called Muscle Cars beck when they were in production, though the term drifted occasionally to 454SS Camaros, and Boss 429 Mustangs.

Today, pretty much any V8 powered vehicle can be considered a Muscle Car, and since the Z28 has what today is an incredibly large one at 5.7 liters (346 ci) it can be considered that. Especially since in today's market, the F-body is in fact a large car!!

A pony car today should be a something in the relm of a V6 4 passenger Solstice-type vehicle. Cheap, but still pricer than normal compacts, an engine that would be mid-grade in a mid-size car, compact in size, and though quick & fast, still a tick behind a true muscle car (ie: GTO).

4th gen F-bodies simply can't be classified either as Muscle cars or Pony Cars. They are big cars with big engines, but does anyone here really put them in the same catagory as Road Runners, GTOs, Cyclones, GNXs, or Chevelle SSs? As for a Pony Car, Camaro walked away from that with the 2nd generation. Look at a '02 SS, and look at a '69. Do you still see any pony? I don't.

Mustangs still have the formula, but in today's world the definition's changed. It still is a stylish, fun to drive car (and still the best selling coupe in the US), but because there's nothing quite like it, it covers both Muscle Car (most forcefully in Cobra and Mach1 trim) and Pony Car (V6) market. GT is has a lot of Both.

The 4th gen f-bodies became Grand Touring cars in the way a BMW 850 coupe, a Ferrari Mondial or the current 456 is. Fast, stylish, low and wide, very fast (and somewhat cramped) 4 passenger car, without the insane price tag.

The only thing Camaro has in common with a Mustang or the new GTO is a V8, a manual tranny, 2 doors, and RWD.

 

I would have to agree with guion with all except what you said about the 4th gen. What do you feel was so radically different about the 4th gen from the 2nd and 3rd gens? To me, Camaros and 'Birds have stayed true to their roots since 1970. From that perspective, they have almost always been GT's. Do I feel that an F-body was a muscle car? No and yes. No in it's older years (true muscle cars were larger cars), but from the the day and age where anything over a 4.0L motor is considered large, I would say that in a way it was a modern muscle car.

 

Good post Guion, but by that logic the new 350Z could be considered a pony car as well, that is, if you reserve the term Sports car for Corvettes, Vipers, Porsche's and the like.

Seems like these are terms that are hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

 

This is probably a better explanation of what I was trying to say in my earleir post. Cars like the Neon SRT-4, Celica, Mitsu Eclipse and the like are in the same market that pony cars of the 60's were in. I won't comment of FWD vs. RWD since the technology that we have now gives a choice that wasn't there in the 60's.

While you can argue that Z/28's and SS's of the past were awesome performers compared to my examples of the modern interpretations the fact remains that the majority of the cars, meaning the tame V8's and V6's were no better than any sport compact out there.

Thus the original pony car formula was replaced by pocket rockets and sport compacts. All the while Camaro itself moved away from what it originally was. It grew up and has been making gains in performance and functionality ever since 1973.

As an aside, all the older ads that i've seen for traditional muscle cars had them labled as "Super Cars".

Cry "Heresy" if you want....just thought I ought to clarify what I had said earlier....

 

I think the 4th gen sort of blurs the ponycar definition because of it's size.

When the 1st gens came out, regular passenger cars were big, and Camaro were small.

Today, when cars are smaller (and Camaros are bigger), Camaro pretends to be a compact, eventhough there is nothing compact about it.

It reminds me of the big gal trying to fit in size 7 dresses. She's fooling no one but her self.

 

I guess in a very narrow definition it could be a muscle car, but in spirit and by common examples, it doesn't seem to fit that catagory.

As for the 4th gen, I probally should have emphasized Camaro walked away from it's pony car classification with the 2nd gen, instead of focusing on the 4th gen, but I think you've got the point I was trying to make.

To be fair, the 71-73 Mustang is debateable as well. It was way too large to be a "Pony" car, and besides the horse on the grill, it also shared nothing with the Pony Car initial concept. It rode soft, had numb handling, plus, the car was a dog with anything other than the 351. Though the Barracuda & Challenger were also pretty big, they at least still looked like pony cars.

Ford may have the survivor of the pony car wars, but in reality, it was competing against America's only true GT!

 

the GTO is a muscle car - see pics below :P

http://www.micro-op.com.au/execls1/udelose1.jpg
http://www.micro-op.com.au/execls1/udelose2.jpg
http://www.micro-op.com.au/execls1/udelose3.jpg

 

Sigh....they don't make them like they used to!

Looks like one hot ride!

 

I think it's more of a GT than either muscle or pony.

 

Nice ride. It's ironic that you posted pictures of that year GTO.

When it 1st came out, GTO enthusiast were really up in arms over it. It was ridiculed as "soft", "feminine", and not a true GTO.

Of course all those opinions changed when it was discovered that those models of GTOs were the quickest ever made up to that time.

Sounds very familiar, doesn't it?