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Mythbusting Part 1: Fuel Economy standards will doom pony & performance cars.

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Mythbusting Part 1: Fuel Economy standards will doom pony & performance cars.

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Old 07-03-2007, 05:15 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Z28x View Post
Make Importing oil from out side of North America illegal and you will solve the CAFE/fuel economy problem and 90% of our national security problems in one shot
Because it's a non starter idea that's dead on arrival.

The US consumes over 20,730,000 barrels of oil per day.

The US produces over 7,610,000 barrels per day (we're the planet's 3rd largest producer).

Canada produces 3,135,000 barrels per day.
Mexico, 3,420,000.

Even if we took every drop of oil Canada and Mexico produced for ourselves and left none for their own countries, at 14,165,000 barrels per day we'd still have less than 2/3s of what we need.

On top of that, we'd still have astronomical fuel price hikes. Katrina caused a disruption of refining just a few thousand barrels per day, yet resulted in price hikes. Today, there is no real disruption in oil prices, yet we're about paying over $3 per gallon. Even without any new crisis, I'm betting $4 before next year.

It's been researched & studied, and it's been proven many times over. The most efficient way to reduce oil consumption is to jack up the prices. The biggest and easiest target that will react the quickest is vehicle fuel. The most productive way to achieve this is through a increase of the sales tax on gasoline, which at 18.4 cents per gallon hasn't been raised since 1993 (despite that fact that 18.4 cents is now worth 10-12 cents because of inflation).

A gas tax would also have the benefit of closing the federal deficit, the value of the dollar would stop falling, we'd be putting money towards paying our own debt instead of relying on other countries to do so, incuring economic and policy favors towards those countries (ie: China), car makers would have an incentive to create economical cars and trucks because the demand was actually there, and it would be one less thing to threaten the auto industry and the hundreds of thousands of jobs that depend on them.


..... but then again a (say an additional 50 cent per gallon) fuel tax might **** off some people who are afraid that 30-50 cents of that extra $5-7 per week they're sending to the government might be wasted. They feel it's better sending the money to a company that provides them no special service other than free air pumps.


BTW: Even with ail the oil in the Middle East, that oil alone wouldn't supply all the oil we need:
Saudi Arabia: 9,475,000 barrels
Iran: 3,979,000
Kuwait: 2,418,000
UAE: 2,540,000
Qatar: 790,500
...Total: 19,202,000 barrels per day.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/en...il-consumption
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/en...oil-production

Last edited by guionM; 07-03-2007 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 10-29-2007, 07:32 PM
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Alan Greenspan said that a $3/gallon fuel tax phased in over several stages would solve the US gasoline problem. Not popular. But with something like that, I could see the need for CAFE standards to disappear. The market would be begging for 40 mpg vehicles.
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:38 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Z28x View Post
As far as prices go think about this:

1964 gas was 30, that is 3 dimes. You old timers might remember that 1964 was also the last year US dimes were made of Silver.

Fast forward to 2007, is Silver is between $13 and $14 an oz. That means those 3 silver 1964 dimes are worth about $1 each, gas is $3 but so are those same 3 dimes that bought a gallon in 1964. Gas prices are not going up, the dollars value is going down.
DING-DING-DING! You are CORRECT and have summed things up nicely. Inflation/devalued US currency has eroded buying power at a dizzying rate and is deteriorating further based on our increasing debt in the last year.
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Old 12-01-2009, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by D80 View Post
DING-DING-DING! You are CORRECT and have summed things up nicely. Inflation/devalued US currency has eroded buying power at a dizzying rate and is deteriorating further based on our increasing debt in the last year.
Actually, the global recession actually has stablized the power of the US dollar (and increased it's value) the past year. Other currencies have been falling faster than ours, therefore increasing the value of the US dollar.

December 29th last year, the US dollar was .70 Euros. June 1st this year, it was still about .70 Euros. Today the Dollar Euro rate is about where it was back at the end of 2007 (.66 to .68).

In 2001, the Dollar Euro rate was stable at about 1.10 to 1.15.

The dollar clearly took a far greater bloodbath annually during the 6-8 years prior to this year, than it's taking this year.

The dollar has been plunging into the toilet since 2001 or so, when the US surplus was wiped out by a combination of a grossly misguided tax cut (instead of using the surplus to pay off our debt and buy back those bonds...basically loans... held by other countries), the cost of waging a war that continued well past the goal of capturing Saddam Huessin, and a 2 term President who never vetoed a single spending bill.

By the way, although the silver dimes analogy is pretty close, it doesn't take into account the fact that in global economic recessions the price of precious metals (including gold and silver) tend to go up tremendously due to investors buying them up as a hedge against inflation and.... unstable or uncertain currency exchange rates.
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Old 12-09-2009, 10:12 PM
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Interesting read --

a couple of things -- 35mpg is a law - and we have to hit it earlier than 2020.....

I do believe there will always be 'muscle/performance' cars - however -- I don't believe that they'll be 'free-flow' or bargain-priced. The reality is that unless technology (i.e. Volt) becomes more economically feasible, 35 is a big number to hit -- esp. when you realize that not everyones' needs can be met with a compact sedan. (.....pickup trucks.....)

Interesting times...........
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:10 PM
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I still wonder what kind of fuel economy numbers that proposed 320hp/520tq half-ton diesel truck would have put out. Heck, the 250hp/406tq V6 version would probably helped a bunch.
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Old 06-30-2014, 09:09 PM
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Re: Mythbusting Part 1: Fuel Economy standards will doom pony & performance cars.

There is no better atomized fuel than vaporized fuel. Cleaner burn, extremely high mpg is possible! But that wouldn't make those who own DC happy!!!
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Old 09-22-2014, 01:42 PM
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Re: Mythbusting Part 1: Fuel Economy standards will doom pony & performance cars.

I was looking back at this thread... gas is still around $3-$4 a gallon and we still have a sufficient amount of pony and muscle cars to buy new. However back in 2007 if someone told you we had a new player in the car market (Tesla) I don't think many would believe it. It will be interesting to see what occurs in the next 7 years to everything (gas prices, muscle cars, and electric cars).
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Old 10-02-2014, 05:53 PM
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Re: Mythbusting Part 1: Fuel Economy standards will doom pony & performance cars.

It is 2014 and you can buy a 10 second car for less than $80k with a factory warranty. Good times.
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Old 10-30-2014, 07:40 PM
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Re: Mythbusting Part 1: Fuel Economy standards will doom pony & performance cars.

Originally Posted by King Moose SS View Post
I was looking back at this thread... gas is still around $3-$4 a gallon and we still have a sufficient amount of pony and muscle cars to buy new. However back in 2007 if someone told you we had a new player in the car market (Tesla) I don't think many would believe it. It will be interesting to see what occurs in the next 7 years to everything (gas prices, muscle cars, and electric cars).
Yeah, I came back nosing around here too.

Sure, back in 2007 if you told someone about Tesla, and that it'd be popular in it's price class no one would believe you......

.....but go back to just 2009 when many people here believed that the Feds propping up GM meant they'd produce nothing but electric golf carts and Chrysler would be nothing more than Real Estate facilitating the dumping of Fiat 500s. Then tell everyone here that in less than 5 years, the quickest, fastest factory production cars mankind has ever seen would be coming out of those 2 companies in less than 5 years and you'd be driven from this site.

Imagine going back 4 or 5 years and try to say that a US government financed General Motors would develop and produce the nearly 600hp ZL1 Camaro....or a Corvette that goes from 0-60 in 4 seconds. Or that not only would Chrysler actually produce great cars again, and that the Dodge Ram would end up being a Consumer Reports favorite and threaten Silverado sales volume, but that the SRT Charger and Challenger which was making something like 420hp at the time would be in a few years making more than 700.

Just as I pointed out when I started this thread, it's the public and the ability of a car maker to make a profit that drives the market (especially performance cars), not some imaginary legislation that outlaws them. In the early 70s you couldn't give performance cars away, so they went extinct....before the energy crisis (started at the end of 1973), or emissions regulations (kicked in 1974 and jumped again in 1980), or fuel economy standards (CAFE's first year was 1978).

Nowadays, there's a whole set of new regulations involving CO2, fuel economy, and the like. Yet even in the face of this, there is still a strong market for stupidly powerful rides. What we have are GT500, ZL1s, and Hellcats. Camaros and Mustangs didn't die, and infact have been redone. Dodge Challenger will have a new generation year after next. And as long as car makers can make money in the process (even if they have to restrict sales and jack prices higher) we will see these cars as long as people are willing to spend money buying them.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:38 PM
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Re: Mythbusting Part 1: Fuel Economy standards will doom pony & performance cars.

For the life of me I can't figure out why we're still burning raw fuel in our cars instead of fuel vapors...?! It can be done, and can save us a ton on gas.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:14 PM
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Re: Mythbusting Part 1: Fuel Economy standards will doom pony & performance cars.

Originally Posted by Aaron91RS View Post
Ummm muscle cars had the lowest power in history during the 70's and mopar died along with AMC and some other brands.

So the above explanation to me has about as much spin as a michael moore film.
I think I rather take my chances leaving CAFE alone and buying whatever I damn well please.
CAFE, along with the EPA, needs to go the way of the dinosaur. Nothing but an attempt to hurt the big 3, and help foreign brands which has been quite effective. ALL of it needs to GO. We NEED those tariffs on foreign garbage as I have said forever.
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