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Mythbusting Part 1: Fuel Economy standards will doom pony & performance cars.

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Mythbusting Part 1: Fuel Economy standards will doom pony & performance cars.

Old 06-20-2007, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Aaron91RS View Post
Yes but in 1976 your 71 hemi cuda, your 455 SD, and your 70 chevelle 454 were still pretty new and easily found. So that 76 wasn't quick at all compared to anybody who WANTED to be quicker and spent less and bought a stock used car.
Thanks, you just proved my point! The statement is that higher horsepower cars survived and actually thrived during the fuel-conscious 70's. Even though 1978 Z28's were relative jokes compared to the 8-10 year old models, they still sold in massive quantities.....
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Old 06-20-2007, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim the Nomad View Post
I think gas prices are going up AND the dollar's value is going down.
IIRC the value of a dollar is just .14 compared to the value of a dollar before we went off the gold standard and the feds started producing the stuff we have now. Sadly as they print the monopoly money they use to cover the debt it decreases the value of the dollar further.
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Old 06-20-2007, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bossco View Post
IIRC the value of a dollar is just .14 compared to the value of a dollar before we went off the gold standard and the feds started producing the stuff we have now. Sadly as they print the monopoly money they use to cover the debt it decreases the value of the dollar further.
Dollars value is just .04 what it was when the Federal Reserve Bank (a private corporation) was formed in 1913. Because we gave away our power to control our own money to this private bank it is now mathematically impossible to ever pay off the national debt based on how the Federal Reserves works

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Old 06-20-2007, 10:06 PM
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ouch
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Old 06-21-2007, 01:18 AM
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I dont like CAFE and I hope they get rid of it. let the market decide what we drive, not the damn gov.
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Old 06-21-2007, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by guionM View Post
CAFE is a fleet based average, not an individual requirement for each vehicle. The way automakers have in the past dealt with this is making their high volume cars as fuel efficient as possible, while manipulating the availability of top optional engines on larger cars or trucks. CAFE average starts dipping down, that large V6 or V8 option just became alot more difficult to get in that Lumina or Caprice, or the price for that option just increased.
I think trying to discourage sales was pretty much a last resort for automakers. No automaker wants to turn away customers, especially for high margin top-of-line models.

The way Detroit has met CAFE in the past was to extend model year runs of economical cars (GM did this with Fiero and I think J-cars); to get cars classified as trucks (because trucks have lower mileage standards; almost everyone does this); to buy enough foreign parts for their gas guzzlers that they get averaged into the 'import' average (back when there was import and domestic averages; Ford did this with their Panthers); or to "borrow" credits from expected future CAFE surpluses.

In other words, CAFE has been a joke. No domestic automaker has ever paid a CAFE fine, and I don't think it's really been a significant factor in preventing automakers from building and selling the cars they think their customers want. However I do think that's changing now that some of the loopholes are being closed and the standards are set to get much higher. GM itself said it was rethinking its RWD plans because of fuel economy concerns and I don't doubt it.
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Old 06-21-2007, 06:52 AM
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Wink

Originally Posted by Aaron91RS View Post
Ummm muscle cars had the lowest power in history during the 70's and mopar died along with AMC and some other brands.

So the above explanation to me has about as much spin as a michael moore film.
I think I rather take my chances leaving CAFE alone and buying whatever I damn well please.
Well Aaron..... to answer the myth you bring up:

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527728

You aren't gonna compare me with Michael Moore and think you'd walk away, did ya?
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Old 06-21-2007, 12:44 PM
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I think comparing the present situation to the 1970's inherently has a few flaws. One of the biggest is that the "green" culture is no longer on the fringe of society. Everyday people (myself included) want to make environmentally friendly decisions, some for the right reasons, and others beacuse its the cool thing to do.

We have a mojor hurdle to overcome when it comes to the preception of our hobby. We need to get to work on making people understand that F-bodies have not singlehandedly brought about about an environmental apocolypse.

In a few years GM will really want to start shedding the stigma of being "brown" (for lack of a better term) and move toward being green. If the way our cars are percieved by the public and the media haven't changed, then we will run into some problems. I have a very environmentally conscious cousin who thinks that Corvettes are these horrible gas guzzling smog machines.. and there's nothing I can do to convince her otherwise. That's what we need to worry about IMO.
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Old 06-21-2007, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 67 LS-1 & T-56 View Post
I think comparing the present situation to the 1970's inherently has a few flaws. One of the biggest is that the "green" culture is no longer on the fringe of society. Everyday people (myself included) want to make environmentally friendly decisions, some for the right reasons, and others beacuse its the cool thing to do.

We have a mojor hurdle to overcome when it comes to the preception of our hobby. We need to get to work on making people understand that F-bodies have not singlehandedly brought about about an environmental apocolypse.
Fortunately, the wrath of the greens is focused at the millions of SUVs all over the roads, and not the relatively small number of Mustangs (and Camaros).

But I agree there's always a perception issue to fight. In another thread, GuionM mentioned that the original Camaro was a compact, economy car. I think if GM offered a diesel or a turbo-4 that had over 30MPG they could get some of that image back.

The core issue is that GM needs to stop thinking of Fuel Economy in terms of "CAFE" and government regulations and start thinking of it as a positive consumer attribute.
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Old 06-21-2007, 06:38 PM
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I guess we will find out, the 35 mpg standard passed the senate today.
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Old 06-22-2007, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by 67 LS-1 & T-56 View Post
I think comparing the present situation to the 1970's inherently has a few flaws. One of the biggest is that the "green" culture is no longer on the fringe of society. Everyday people (myself included) want to make environmentally friendly decisions, some for the right reasons, and others beacuse its the cool thing to do.
The "green" culture was most certainly not on the fringe of society during that time. Almost all of the laws/regulations put into place started in the late 60's to the early 80's, the majority of which came under what was then the conservative republican administration of Richard Nixon who we all know formed his own opinions and never put his finger in the wind to decide a position

I personally do not see an end to performance cars as the fleet numbers of them are very small. I do see an slow down of mainstream cars with big horsepower like the Chrysler 300c. Prices for these performance cars may go up though to justify the cost of producing them, though. Furthermore, more than just the decrease in high horsepower mainstream cars, I see in general the average midsize sedan (i.e the cars that sell more than anything else; Camry, Accord, Impala, Altima) seeing a major drop in horsepower because frankly, these things are getting really fast and do not really need it (especially the V6 ones).

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Old 06-22-2007, 11:23 PM
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Whether or not it kills or hinders muscle cars, CAFE is bad because it is a stupid policy, plain and simple.

People are becoming "greener" and more cognizant of fuel efficiency quite well on their own, without the government forcing the automakers to build stuff that isn't being asked for. It really is amazing...

GM isn't coming out with full two-mode hybrid Tahoes because the government says they have to. The market is asking them to do it. Same with the small block sized diesel that has been discussed lately. In fact, the government has made it HARDER to bring out highly fuel efficient diesels thanks to ever tightening emissions standards... Meanwhile, in supposedly more socially mature and greener Europe, diesels are everywhere...

*sigh*
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Old 06-22-2007, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by 96_Camaro_B4C View Post
Whether or not it kills or hinders muscle cars, CAFE is bad because it is a stupid policy, plain and simple.

People are becoming "greener" and more cognizant of fuel efficiency quite well on their own, without the government forcing the automakers to build stuff that isn't being asked for. It really is amazing...

GM isn't coming out with full two-mode hybrid Tahoes because the government says they have to. The market is asking them to do it. Same with the small block sized diesel that has been discussed lately. In fact, the government has made it HARDER to bring out highly fuel efficient diesels thanks to ever tightening emissions standards... Meanwhile, in supposedly more socially mature and greener Europe, diesels are everywhere...

*sigh*
Amen.
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Old 07-02-2007, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 96_Camaro_B4C View Post
Whether or not it kills or hinders muscle cars, CAFE is bad because it is a stupid policy, plain and simple.

People are becoming "greener" and more cognizant of fuel efficiency quite well on their own, without the government forcing the automakers to build stuff that isn't being asked for. It really is amazing...

GM isn't coming out with full two-mode hybrid Tahoes because the government says they have to. The market is asking them to do it. Same with the small block sized diesel that has been discussed lately. In fact, the government has made it HARDER to bring out highly fuel efficient diesels thanks to ever tightening emissions standards... Meanwhile, in supposedly more socially mature and greener Europe, diesels are everywhere...

*sigh*
I agree with this 100% - government does not need to be meddling in the "efficiency" equation. IMO, it can backfire and give the automaker's a minimum to shoot for and call it a day. Likewise, when you compound the details of emissions and "clean technology", the rulebook is getting too thick to keep track of.

On the other side of the coin though... if they MUST regulate something, why not regulate the price of gasolne and diesel? Outside of the same old argument we all agree on - "keep Uncle Sam out of my business", why shouldn't the government step in and control the retail price?
Electric utilities are regulated. Insurace rates are regulated. Even lending rates are regulated to a degree.
Power companies and insurance companies are making profits like crazy. (Seen any Geico or Progressive commercials on TV lately?!?!)

For a commodity to be such a linch-pin to our economy, yet not be governed in any way kinda scares me more than the thought of Uncle Sam taking it over.

Personally, I'd much rather see that happen than more elevated CAFE numbers. If diesel were still cheaper than gas here like it was 5 years ago, you'd see a run on diesel cars and trucks like crazy. Using that type of leverage, the government could put pressure on manufacturers to produce vehicles that meet an enegy-based need, without actually giving them an efficiency target to shoot at (and play games with).
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Old 07-02-2007, 02:11 PM
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Make Importing oil from out side of North America illegal and you will solve the CAFE/fuel economy problem and 90% of our national security problems in one shot

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