I said a stripper car isn't going to sell and the investment isn't worth it. But I'm not talking about stripper cars here. Mach 1 isn't a stripper. Neither is Mustang GT. Neither is the Shelby GT. The Ford Performance Packs come from the factory as add on accessories. Basically what I'm talking about are packages that are aimed at specialized markets.

It seems we'll get a track oriented Z28 and the visually sporty SS. How about an RS that's more than a ground effect package? Perhaps a different grille and interior trim and available in both V6 and V8? How about an LT thats more a Germanish road going car with BMW-type rims and no-nonsense interior? Although you can't use the name without permission, how about a Yenko inspired limited edition Camaro? With NASCAR planning a race based on sporty coupes, there's also the possibility of a version there. Even Monte Carlo had more special editions than the 4th gen has had.



No. People know about the GT500 because they know Mustang history. Older wealthier Mustang fans are the key buyer of the new Shelby GT500.

Nope. ZL1 isn't the most popular factory tuned Camaro. In fact, for all intents and purposes, the ZL1 Camaro never existed!

ZL1 Camaro is one of the cars I often cite from the muscle car era whose reputation has zilch to do with reality. Why?

1. Only 69 were made (Even Callaway and Yenko made more Camaros!). There wasn't even any public awareness of the engine till the mid 70s!!

2. ZL1 never appeared in any option book.

3. The engine was designed for a particular race driver and not done by General Motors (or even Chevrolet) as a gift to the enthusiast community. In order for this driver to legally race the thing, the engine had to make it's way into a production car...50 in this case.... only 19 were later ordered by dealers (Even the highly restricted sales of the late 90s Mustang Cobra R produced orders many times over that amount), and most all regreted it!


The engine ALONE cost $4,000 in a day where you could buy an entire new V8 Camaro for about $2,900, get a decent new GTO for about $3,800, and buy a Corvette for about $4,200 (don't let the prices fool you... A person making $40-50K per year today would be making just $7-8K in 1969).



If that price wasn't enough of a cardiac arrest inducer, consider the MANDATORY options you had to buy with the engine that pushed the package price to well over $7,000!!

With a $25K V8 Camaro is close in constant dollars to where it was in 1969, I can't think of too many buyers willing to additionally spend roughly $50,000+ just for a Camaro...... without an engine and drivetrain warranty!

The final mythbuster of the popularity of the ZL1 Camaro is the fact that no dealer could sell them. Not that they didn't end up at dealers (necessary for it to be considered a production engine).... dealers simply COULD NOT SELL THEM!!

It's easy to look at the prices of ZL1 Camaros at Barrett-Jackson auctions and think these cars were popular. But, just like the Chrysler Hemi powered cars of that era, it's the rareity that's powered the prices, not any fame or popularity.

Consider this piece from an article on the ZL1:

No.... These things weren't popular. Even in muscle crazed 1969.


..... For the record, the early Z28's 302 V8 was & is the most popular factory tuned Camaro.

http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml
http://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-073.pdf

 

I agree completely. And I also believe the Camaro will be available in enough models combined with specific option packages that will give us much of that variety.

 

Excellent response Guy.

FWIW, of the almost 700,000 Camaros produced between 1967-69 (699,138 to be exact), 20.5% were Rally Sports (143,592); 13.8% were Super Sports (96,810); and only 4% were Z/28s (28,103)*. Now while the database does not indicate which of the Rally Sports were combined with the Super Super or Z/28 options, the numbers do show that more than 60%** of Camaro buyers chose the plain Jane no-frills option.

So while having a dozen different trim levels sounds like a great idea on the surface, back in the day, most buyers didn't purchase them.

This is not to say that times haven't changed mind you; only that saying that these models are needed for historical significance or because they were popular in their day is a weak argument.

*Source CRG
** Note: if you assume that 20.5% of SS and Z/28 Camaros were RS optioned, the number is closer to 65%.

 

Nope. It got popular after the movie. So many people don't even call it a GT500, they just call it Eleanor.

None of these points matter because it is what people think of the car now, not then.

Neither can I. That is why they won't do it(unless GM gets huge comeback).
No they weren't. Too slow and overpriced for what you got. The Hemi Challengers aren't even fast cars. Relatively slow. However its the rarety that got them popular in the late 90s and is what DCX has been using as a marketing tool.
After all, marketing it what gave the Mustang the edge.
We all take the Z/28 to be a factory car. A factory tuned car would be something of the likes of SLP. Or a Shelby tuned Mustang in the 60s.
But this (retro) is getting pretty dumb and the market for retro will fall out pretty soon.
The funny thing is that some arbitrary company is going to come out with a good looking modern car pretty soon. And everyone will like this car. They will then look down on the retro styling.

 

Yep. Just like the Scions doing so well. People want originality. They want to stand out.
And this is why we must have factory optioned rollcages and superchargers.

 

Maybe to the younger crowd who saw it in a movie and thought it cool because Nicolas Cage drove the begeezus out of it through the streets of Long Beach. But anyone with the slightest bit of oil under the nails or cars on the brain who grew up in the 70s and perhaps the early 80s KNOWS what a Shelby is, and is very aware of what a GT350 and a GT500 was. Also, check out the buyer profile of the new GT500.

Gotta disagree with ya there. Say ZL1 to anyone (even enthuisiasts), and 75% of the time you'll probally get a blank expression. Of the remaining 25%, most will have wrong info on it. Does that mean it doesn't matter??

Yet you say Z28, and most everyone will know what you're talking about. I'm willing to bet a good percentage of auto buffs know it's an option code. Makes it far more famous & popular than the ZL1, whose existence is known only to hard core Camaro buffs and rich Barrett-Jackson car investors.


I'll go both ways on this. The Hemis weren't fast cars, but they were quick cars. They had phenominal torque, and that's what wins drag races.

Hemi's drawback is they were phenominally expensive to make. Therefore they also were phenominally expensive to buy. That was the engine's downfall. Eventially, good 440 wedges were able to produce much the same power. Hemis, like the Australian 5.4 quad cammer Ford, was also unruly in size and weight.

SLP ISN'T factory. Neither was Shelby. These were aftermarket companies. Just like Saleen, Callaway, & Rousch. All were private companies who operated with varying degrees of support from the parent company by offering either technical info, special manufacturing arrangements, or access to privileged information such as new car development.

On the flip side, Z28 was developed by the Chevrolet Motor division of General Motors. Late model Camaro SS is a unusual and unique car in that Chevrolet paid SLP to make the car, and actually had a GM option code for the thing. The Camaro SS, like the Firebird Firehawk, is still an aftermarket car.

The Ford Shelby GT500 was made entirely in house (by the former Ford SVT), and is strictly factory, and pays Shelby to use his name. On the other hand, the Hertz Shelby Mustang is aftermarket in that it's modified by Shelby American in Las Vegas Nevada, along with the CS6 and other Shelby products. The new Mustang Shelby GT is in house & factory, again paying for Shelby's name (it's basically a Mustang GT with Ford Racing FR1, FR2, and FR3 packages installed.. save a more modest rear ratio... and a Hertz Shelby grille and lettering).

Chrysler's SRT is factory & in house.

Confused yet?

Don't worry......You should be.

 

Being a member of that age group, id like to remind you that we are a very large and enthusiastic group of potential new car buyers.

 

Don't recall seeing that movie ...but I do recall drooling over the GT500 convertible Max drove to work on the intro to every weeks episode of Get Smart!

 

Yenko was what came to mind for me when you posed this question of Camaro special editions. Get their permission and give it the 427 LS7 as Corvette moves up in HP stature and make Yenko the top Camaro for a limited number of years. Maintain the Base, SS, and Z/28 lineup with RS package available across the board as you described. Now you would have a Mustang Pony and Shelby GT500 alternative. I don't see the California/Midwest/Shelby GT-H cars as anything that would require a lot to counter. Perhaps have a NASCAR and other packages with unique options similar to these Mustangs offered from year-to-year.

I'm not prepared for a ZL1 return and think it's a moniker best left as is. As you mentioned, only 69 were produced. It gets mentioned a lot on message boards like this, but that doesn't mean it needs to be resurrected and produced in the thousands. Unless a similar number (69) were produced to commerate this model and it had mind-boggling performance, I don't see the point.

 

Of course! That's why it's great movies like "Gone In 60 seconds" and "Too Fast Too Furious" showed a new generation of potential new car buyers that REAL cool cars didn't have front wheel drive or a Japanese name, and had more than 4 cylinders.

BTW, going back to the idea that "Eleanor" made the GT500 popular, the GT500 in that movie is not a stock GT500, and isn't what you could buy at a Ford dealer. The hood is different. The front is different. In short, at best it's a Shelby Mustang with alot of customizing done to it.

Again, it's nice that it introduced a new generation to 60s era muscle cars, but the cars were well known and very popular before the movies came out.

That was an Opel GT.

.....wait!

.....was that post a diabolical ploy to reveal my age???!

 

As a member of the older crowd (42 years old), who is more in the actual demographic for these cars.............. I never saw "Gone in 60 seconds." Yet, when I was in my teens, I knew what a GT350 and GT500 was.

They were the Mustangs that people aspired to............... as they signed their papers on a 6cyl.

Remember, I knew about them without seeing the movie............ and with being saddled with being female. Talk about a handicap. LOL

 

Growing up, one of my neighbors had a 68 Shelby GT500 KR convertible. I knew what a GT500 was, I knew what a Shelby was, and even though I was Chevy-guy, I knew how rare that car was. That was over 25-years ago.

I'm sorry, and this is going to sound bad as I have no kinder way to say this, but that was the most asinine statement I have ever read posted on this website. I don't know you; your age; or your background; however that clearly shows how out of touch you are with automotive history.

I should probably tell you that "KR" stands for "King of the Road"... which probably is of no significance to you, as you have no concept as to when Shelby became a household name.

 

Yeah, Shelbys were those kick-*** Dodge Omnis!

(J/K -- certainly any car guy has heard of them, but most Shelby Mustangs have been locked up tight as collector cars for so long that it's perfectly reasonable that someone under say 30 might not be aware of them.)

 

Awesome, 69 more factory camaros that can't be touched for under 6 figures.

Lesse, probably have to convert the engine to a wet sump configuration, I suppose accessories and thier drives would just be a carry over from regular F5 stuff, then there is the exhaust side of things. This begs the question, how many ZL1 camaros would you have to sell at an inflation adjusted price of 50k to make money?

 

I think to a younger generation, the movie did make the car famous to that generation. To and older generation, you just already knew about it. Like you said, about it being 25 years ago, I am 27. How many of those cars do I see in the neighbor's driveway?