Mustang. Submitted for your thoughts.......
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 123
From: S. Indiana, USA
What if they did something with the RS name? Make the RS more of an appearance package than a performance one. Put it as an option on all the models, and change up the appearance every year or two. Like different ground effects, different spoiler, different exhaust tips, a hood or two. Maybe offer a few performance goodies from the factory. Use the RS to fight all the special edition Mustangs?
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 586
From: OHIO
Hmmmm Wouldn't a Firebird give GM at least three more variations on the platform. Yeah, yeah, I know no Firebird! GM doesn't want to overlap products just ignore G5/Cobalt, Torrent/Equonox in Pontiac's lineup (no overlap there!). Hey, at least Vibe doesn't overlap with another GM product (Toyota yes but GM no).
But yeah, we wouldn't want a camaro and firebird to compete with each other.
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 202
The 1982 Mustang?
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,802
From: Annapolis MD
..... has anyone stopped long enough to notice how many versions of the Mustang will proliferate during the 2007 calender & 2008 model year!! 
Let this soak in.
1. You'll have the base V6 Mustang.
2. You'll have the "Pony" Mustang (the V6 with alot of GT appearence items & smaller grill foglamps).
3. There's the California Mustang (similar to the Pony, & available in 50 states).
4. There's the "Midwest" Mustang (like the pony, but available in... the midwest).
5. There's the Mustang GT.
6. There's the Mustang Shelby GT.
7. The Bullitt Mustang will be out in 2007 calendar year.
8. The new Boss Mustang will be out in a year or so (basically a Mach 1 with different stripes).
9. The Shelby Mustang GT500
That's NINE known versions!!!
(not counting convertibles!)
You can have just about everything save the GT500 in a stick or an automatic.
The GT you have a choice of at least 3 different rim styles.
You can get manual rollup windows if you want.
Don't know about you, but seeing this many versions of the Mustang makes me REALLY want to rip the frigging arm off of and beat over the head the next person with a crack about how V6s are for women, how Camaro would sell more if only they had more horsepower, or starts another debate about how the SS should be over the Z28 or vice versa. Anyone saying Camaro should be a "No-Compromise performance car" should simply be shot on sight!!!!!
It's really sad that even though the Camaro has long been dead, and Ford (as screwed up as they are) is actually a genious with marketing the Mustang to the widest range of people imaginable, there are people who still don't get why Ford is mopping up the market with the Mustang.
The G35 coupe is a speck next to Mustang's numbers and the profit Ford makes on them. Everyone has either owned or had a close friend or family member who's owned a Mustang. No FWD import comes clsoe in sales numbers or diverse demographics. The Dodge Challenger is simply going to be a better GTO (loaded, and above $30K).
Ford can still make money selling just 90K Mustangs per year (they are running 160-170K now). The new and more-expensive-to-make IRS Camaro is going to cost GM so much to make that the basic structure is going to need to run well over 100K per year to be profitable (consider this the 1st clue Camaro isn't going to be the only coupe
).
Bottom line:
Camaro NEEDS to appeal to a broad market to even be in the game!
Sure, Camaro will be a sellout the 1st year. It wil, continue to be a strong seller the 2nd year. But if it's going to survive, it needs long-term chops. That's only going to come by making special versions of it that go beyond just a set of decals. GM is going to have to ignore some of the more "vocal" people here & realize that lots of guys buy V6s because they can't afford insurence, but still customize. GM is going to need to see that the way to get the money of people who want something different is a series of limited edition cars that serve a specialized function (ie: a dragstrip designed Camaro like the Mustang Mach 1, a track designed Camaro like the last Cobra, or a obnoxious high level car & a throwback car like the Shelby GT500 & Shelby GT respectively).
If GM brings out a V6 Camaro, a Camaro SS, then a Z28, and calls it a day, I wouldn't bank on there being a 6th gen Camaro. A few years (and a restyled Mustang, along with another round of "special" models) and Camaro is toast.
Here's to the hope GM is listening.
BTW:
There's this thing called the Ford Racing Performance Pack that's available on Mustangs.
The FR1, FR2, and FR3.
FR1 is a garage doable package that includes exhaust, a mass airflow meter, and calerbration for premium fuel.
FR2 (Drag Pack) includes 4.10 gears, headers, shifter, and the FR1 MAF meter & calabration.
FR3 is the Handling Pack. Includes shocks, springs, strut bracing, rollbars, etc. All derived from the FR500C race car.
..... AND if you purchase through the National Mustang Racing Association, they'll cover your fee for 1 of the NMRA or FFW races that year!
This is just the tip of the iceberg from the factory... and I'm excluding the aftermarket!
Chevrolet is going to need to get SERIOUS about Camaro.
Again, hope they're listening.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/perfo...cepackages.asp
Let this soak in.
1. You'll have the base V6 Mustang.
2. You'll have the "Pony" Mustang (the V6 with alot of GT appearence items & smaller grill foglamps).
3. There's the California Mustang (similar to the Pony, & available in 50 states).
4. There's the "Midwest" Mustang (like the pony, but available in... the midwest).
5. There's the Mustang GT.
6. There's the Mustang Shelby GT.
7. The Bullitt Mustang will be out in 2007 calendar year.
8. The new Boss Mustang will be out in a year or so (basically a Mach 1 with different stripes).
9. The Shelby Mustang GT500
That's NINE known versions!!!
(not counting convertibles!)
You can have just about everything save the GT500 in a stick or an automatic.
The GT you have a choice of at least 3 different rim styles.
You can get manual rollup windows if you want.
Don't know about you, but seeing this many versions of the Mustang makes me REALLY want to rip the frigging arm off of and beat over the head the next person with a crack about how V6s are for women, how Camaro would sell more if only they had more horsepower, or starts another debate about how the SS should be over the Z28 or vice versa. Anyone saying Camaro should be a "No-Compromise performance car" should simply be shot on sight!!!!!
It's really sad that even though the Camaro has long been dead, and Ford (as screwed up as they are) is actually a genious with marketing the Mustang to the widest range of people imaginable, there are people who still don't get why Ford is mopping up the market with the Mustang.
The G35 coupe is a speck next to Mustang's numbers and the profit Ford makes on them. Everyone has either owned or had a close friend or family member who's owned a Mustang. No FWD import comes clsoe in sales numbers or diverse demographics. The Dodge Challenger is simply going to be a better GTO (loaded, and above $30K).
Ford can still make money selling just 90K Mustangs per year (they are running 160-170K now). The new and more-expensive-to-make IRS Camaro is going to cost GM so much to make that the basic structure is going to need to run well over 100K per year to be profitable (consider this the 1st clue Camaro isn't going to be the only coupe
).Bottom line:
Camaro NEEDS to appeal to a broad market to even be in the game!
Sure, Camaro will be a sellout the 1st year. It wil, continue to be a strong seller the 2nd year. But if it's going to survive, it needs long-term chops. That's only going to come by making special versions of it that go beyond just a set of decals. GM is going to have to ignore some of the more "vocal" people here & realize that lots of guys buy V6s because they can't afford insurence, but still customize. GM is going to need to see that the way to get the money of people who want something different is a series of limited edition cars that serve a specialized function (ie: a dragstrip designed Camaro like the Mustang Mach 1, a track designed Camaro like the last Cobra, or a obnoxious high level car & a throwback car like the Shelby GT500 & Shelby GT respectively).
If GM brings out a V6 Camaro, a Camaro SS, then a Z28, and calls it a day, I wouldn't bank on there being a 6th gen Camaro. A few years (and a restyled Mustang, along with another round of "special" models) and Camaro is toast.
Here's to the hope GM is listening.
BTW:
There's this thing called the Ford Racing Performance Pack that's available on Mustangs.
The FR1, FR2, and FR3.
FR1 is a garage doable package that includes exhaust, a mass airflow meter, and calerbration for premium fuel.
FR2 (Drag Pack) includes 4.10 gears, headers, shifter, and the FR1 MAF meter & calabration.
FR3 is the Handling Pack. Includes shocks, springs, strut bracing, rollbars, etc. All derived from the FR500C race car.
..... AND if you purchase through the National Mustang Racing Association, they'll cover your fee for 1 of the NMRA or FFW races that year!
This is just the tip of the iceberg from the factory... and I'm excluding the aftermarket!
Chevrolet is going to need to get SERIOUS about Camaro.
Again, hope they're listening.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/perfo...cepackages.asp
I owned a V6 98 because I couldnt afford the V8. V6 shouldnt = weak Camaro...
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 1,873
From: South Jersey
All right you old-timers, name the year this Mustang line-up was available:
1. Base 2-dr Coupe
2. Base 2-dr Fastback
3. Base 2-dr conv.
4. Grande 2-dr Coupe
5. GT 2-dr Coupe
6. GT 2-dr Fastback
7. GT 2-dr conv.
8. Mach 1 2-dr Fastback
9. Boss 302 2-dr Fastback
10. Boss 429 2-dr Fastback
11. Shelby GT-350 2-dr Fastback
12. Shelby GT-350 2-dr Conv.
13. Shelby GT-500 2-dr Fastback
14. Shelby GT-500 2-dr Conv.
The more things change the more they stay the same…
A little off-topic, but for extra credit, for one model year only, Ford actually marketed a sporty version of one of its cars as the “SS” model, with prominently displayed SS stickers on each front door (I’m sure GM loved that). Name the car and model year.
1. Base 2-dr Coupe
2. Base 2-dr Fastback
3. Base 2-dr conv.
4. Grande 2-dr Coupe
5. GT 2-dr Coupe
6. GT 2-dr Fastback
7. GT 2-dr conv.
8. Mach 1 2-dr Fastback
9. Boss 302 2-dr Fastback
10. Boss 429 2-dr Fastback
11. Shelby GT-350 2-dr Fastback
12. Shelby GT-350 2-dr Conv.
13. Shelby GT-500 2-dr Fastback
14. Shelby GT-500 2-dr Conv.
The more things change the more they stay the same…
A little off-topic, but for extra credit, for one model year only, Ford actually marketed a sporty version of one of its cars as the “SS” model, with prominently displayed SS stickers on each front door (I’m sure GM loved that). Name the car and model year.
...and you didn't break it down by engine option, but that'd get REAL complicated in a hurry.As for your extra credit...I'm going to guess one of the "Special Service" models?
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,449
From: Bentonville, AR
I understand what you're getting at, and if that is what GM needs to do to ensure the Camaro's return isn't short lived I say go for it.
Personally though, I could care less about all the stickered up Mustangs. Make it look like a GT or Cobra?!!? IMHO, Ford is just watering down the breed and taking away from those that buy the higher trim Mustangs.
Personally though, I could care less about all the stickered up Mustangs. Make it look like a GT or Cobra?!!? IMHO, Ford is just watering down the breed and taking away from those that buy the higher trim Mustangs.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,597
From: Mack and Bewick
Hmmmm Wouldn't a Firebird give GM at least three more variations on the platform. Yeah, yeah, I know no Firebird! GM doesn't want to overlap products just ignore G5/Cobalt, Torrent/Equonox in Pontiac's lineup (no overlap there!). Hey, at least Vibe doesn't overlap with another GM product (Toyota yes but GM no).
Ok kiddies. One, new sheet metal cost more than new badges. Two, G5 is a stop gap and will be dead before you know it, Torrent AND Equinox are essentially already dad.
Chevy/Pontiac/Buick Vans... Thats right. Dead.
They still make a Tahoe Yukon and Escalade you say? Well if you're willing to pay $10,000 for your firebird thats 95% identical to a $20,000 Camaro, like the people who are in Yukons did... Or pay in extra $15,000 for your Trans Am over a 90% identical $30,000 Z/28...
Then Im sure GM will be willing to oblige you.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 42
From: New Jersey
Nope, but only one model year off, and not a Mustang!
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,802
From: Annapolis MD
What if they did something with the RS name? Make the RS more of an appearance package than a performance one. Put it as an option on all the models, and change up the appearance every year or two. Like different ground effects, different spoiler, different exhaust tips, a hood or two. Maybe offer a few performance goodies from the factory. Use the RS to fight all the special edition Mustangs?
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,428
Yes. We talked about this probably 6 months to a year ago. There was talk to tons of versions. The cool thing is that they all came true. The sad part is that they are mostly appearance packages (but I understand why).
Last edited by number77; Dec 14, 2006 at 04:16 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,428
It's really sad that even though the Camaro has long been dead, and Ford (as screwed up as they are) is actually a genious with marketing the Mustang to the widest range of people imaginable, there are people who still don't get why Ford is mopping up the market with the Mustang.
Originally Posted by guionM
Sure, Camaro will be a sellout the 1st year. It wil, continue to be a strong seller the 2nd year. But if it's going to survive, it needs long-term chops. That's only going to come by making special versions of it that go beyond just a set of decals. GM is going to have to ignore some of the more "vocal" people here & realize that lots of guys buy V6s because they can't afford insurence, but still customize. GM is going to need to see that the way to get the money of people who want something different is a series of limited edition cars that serve a specialized function (ie: a dragstrip designed Camaro like the Mustang Mach 1, a track designed Camaro like the last Cobra, or a obnoxious high level car & a throwback car like the Shelby GT500 & Shelby GT respectively).
A stipper track car to? I'd love that too, but you said that making little changes in the assembly process would cost GM alot of money.
Throwback version? There aren't any popular vintage versions. Alot of people know about the GT500 because of the Gone-in-60-seconds movie. The most popular version factory tuned Camaro is the ZL1. And we definitely don't want that name to be soiled by anything less than 600hp (the original had around 500 I believe)...
.......Unless you think GM could engineer the Camaro engine bay and rear like the Z06's, and have some Camaros roll down the line with the vettes to get that rediculous powertrain they are currently testing.
Last edited by number77; Dec 14, 2006 at 04:21 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
I'm not really sure that Camaro needs a bazillion variants like Mustang. Don't get me wrong, I credit Ford for their proliferation. But some of these variants are regional and basically rehash already seen trim pieces, model designations, and vinyl tape into new combos. Nothing wrong with that.
We'll see FAR more variation in the 5th gen Camaro than we EVER did in the 4th gen. Probably as much as the 3rd gen. More choices in powertrains, wheels, trim, etc. And I'm not just referring to the V8 models either. The V6, for example, will have the potential to be outfitted with some cool options for probably not alot of money. And I'm not just talking about an MP3 player - I'm talking option packages, (perhaps bundled as a specific model designation), which will give variety in the the wheel/tire combo, exterior appearance and lighting.
I'm more concerned about GM getting all of the planned models just right versus simply churning out multiple mediocre ones.
We'll see FAR more variation in the 5th gen Camaro than we EVER did in the 4th gen. Probably as much as the 3rd gen. More choices in powertrains, wheels, trim, etc. And I'm not just referring to the V8 models either. The V6, for example, will have the potential to be outfitted with some cool options for probably not alot of money. And I'm not just talking about an MP3 player - I'm talking option packages, (perhaps bundled as a specific model designation), which will give variety in the the wheel/tire combo, exterior appearance and lighting.
I'm more concerned about GM getting all of the planned models just right versus simply churning out multiple mediocre ones.
Last edited by Z284ever; Dec 14, 2006 at 09:36 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 178
These appearance packages are a key part of the Mustangs appeal. They give the customer the ability to customize their car from the factory. It worked with the original Mustang, and, obviously, it still works today. That long list of trim options makes sure that your 'stang doesn't look like anyone elses. Which is very important to a lot of people. Now I know that G.M. can't match this because ( as the Firebird threads have pointed out ) the cost of making different trim pieces is astronomical! But G.M. is going to have to come up with as much as they can afford if they want the Camaro to compete on Mustangs level.
