Magnum Force

the future looks very bright

Bob Cosby

Why?

PacerX

Well...

I'll cover the short list:

1) A +400hp Corvette.

2) A +500hp Corvette.

3) A +625hp Ultra-Corvette with the backing of the highest levels of management in the corporation.

"There will be versions of the Corvette that I can comfortably say will suck the doors off both of those cars..."

- Bob Lutz referring to the Ford GT and the Dodge Viper


4) A GTO that will progressively increase in power.

5) A follow-on GTO chassis packing a variant of the #1 and #2 motors.

6) A CTSv packing the same motor selection as #5.

7) A V12 motor for Cadillac... with good chances of ending up in the STSv, the Escalade and the XLRv.

8) Solstice, Bengal, and whatever they decide to call the Saturn variant.

9) The Holdens.

10) A financially healthy company that has managed to eliminate the largest pension plan on the planet as a liability.

11) A new, dedicated facility devoted to turning out stunningly powerful engines for the rarer and more exclusive vehicles listed above.

And finally...

12) The return of a certain, rather well-known 2+2 performance car... designed to handle levels of power that will truly shock folks, and will have one performance feature in particular no one at Ford ever thought of for their competing car.

Against this onslaught, Ford is providing a rather porky (if early reports are correct) Mustang, a high performance truck (don't get me started...), and an over-priced pseudo-exotic that will find it's true competition is a car costing half as much.

***This is just the stuff we KNOW is coming. Whatever the evil minds at GM have cooking in the shadows has hints of being even more amazing.... such as 750hp twin-turbocharged V-12's... supercharged Gen-IV variants in the trucks... etc...***

Bob Cosby

And assuming all that happens, this is going to be bad for "Ford fans"?

We are all entitled to our opinions, I suppose.

PacerX

There certainly are more important issues than just the performance cars. Ford fans and Ford Motor Company have a plethora of problems much larger than this small part of the pie.

Bob Cosby

You obviously missed my point.

Have a nice evening.

1990 Turbo Grand Prix

Hmmmm.... AWD perhaps? Work with me here.

BigDarknFast

I for one am hoping there are no hints forthcoming about 'surprise features', partly because I enjoy reading PacerX's posts here and would be bummed if he slipped up and got in trouble.

Just look back at history:

1. The 1997 Grand Prix came with 240 HP and a factory supercharger. Who would have guessed that in 1995, or that it would be head and shoulders above the performance of its competition?

2. Did Ford ever put out a car in the same performance class as the Grand Sport LT4 Vette? The 03 Cobra is close (finally!) (alas, it still sees a lot of Z06 taillights)

3. Typhoon/Syclone - it took Ford literally years to offer a truck (the current generation L's) in the same performance league

4. Buick GNX... need I say more?

5. LS1 Fbodies enjoyed four years of gratifying dominance

The Ford GT and the new Mustang are good signs that Ford is serious about competing with this spectacular history. Let the competition continue

morb|d

wait, how did this happen? i want details, anyone have links to support this info?

crYnOid

Have a look here morb|d

Fbodfather

Thank you, Doug! Very good point.........

I happen to know PacerX.........and he knows what he's talking about........this isn't meant to flame anyone......however, I would take a little more stock in the postings of someone within the industry rather than from someone outside of the industry when it comes to perspective.

If you REALLY read into PacerXs posts, I think you'll find that in most cases, he understands the various intricacies of the automotive industry. (I think most of you would be blown away as to the detail that goes into product planning and the incredible amount of information/time/planning/projection that goes into developing a new car or truck.

It is inappropriate to speak for PacerX, however, I suspect that he, like myself, get frustrated at some of the stuff we see posted on this site at times. (and no, not all sites are like this one!) And, when it's late....or you've had a bad day.......or for whatever reason, it's very easy to "blast back" at someone who we realize doesn't understand the whole issue. (or, forgive me....someone who doesn't know what they're talking about......)

And most of you have heard me say this ...but I'll say it again......THERE IS NEVER A SIMPLE ANSWER FOR ANYTHING! There are reasons behind what happens within the industry that you probably could never imagine. (some of you have asked me questions in person at the various enthusiast shows about "why did GM do this or why didn't GM to that"...and when you hear the answer, you have a much better understanding, and, for the most part, you now understand and agree with the decision. Interestingly, I agreed to meet with everyone from CZ28.com last fall at B/G......a "let's sit down at breakfast---drink WAY TOO MUCH COFFEE--- and pick Red's mind......." Wow.........a handful showed up! Now..I'm not busting your chops about that......but I find it frustrating on this board that laymen will take on an expert such as PacerX........when, in many cases, the person taking him on is, in my humble opinion, clueless to the inner workings of the auto industry.

(by the way, I have not read this entire thread...but jumped into the middle and happened to see Doug's post and a few after his......)

Last.......you wanna sit down with PacerX and I sometime? Annual Fcar gathering at the National Corvette Museum the weekend of September 18th............GET IT ON YOUR CALENDAR..... you might be surprised at the great people you meet ...and also to find out there are lots of other opinions out there!

Again...thank you, Mr. Harden......you are a gentleman!

morb|d

thanks. i got the jist of it, but i don't have the background to really put it together. but from what i understood this is good news.

BigDarknFast

RP/Doug - you are right. And in the spirit of performance fan fellowship I've gone back and toned down some of my risky rhetoric in this thread plus will lift off the throttle next time I feel the urge...

Nonetheless... WERM's news leaves me all tingly

Bob Cosby

I hope it is possible to discuss without this getting carried away.

BigDarknFast...I'd like to reply to your points...

1) 89 T-bird SSC. Blown V6, similar size and target audience. Not quite as powerful - 210/315 if memory servers, but like the later GP's, there was really nothing else in its class for several years.

2) At that time, probably not. The 95 R was a good performer (351W, "race" suspension), but it was more limited, and didn't have the street "creature comforts".

3) I think the phrase "it took Ford years" is misleading. That implies that Ford tried to put out something that would beat the Sy/Ty, but couldn't do it till the 2nd Gen L. Again, I think that is misleading. For whatever reason, Ford simply didn't do it. If the new SS truck someday gets the power needed to beat the new L, one could make the same statement about GM - though I don't tink that would be true either. See my point?

The 1st Gen L (93-95) was specifically aimed at the Chevy 454 SS - not the Sy/Ty. The 2nd Gen has had no competitors for several years. Also, the Fords are trucks that can do truck things. The Sy/Ty are/were not.

That said....I'm still quite fond of both of those vehicles....especially the Syclone.

4) Ya. 89 TTA. Seriously, the GNX was neat, but for pure performance, and certainly availability, I'll take the TTA.

Curiously....the GNX was something of a precurser to cars like the 93, 95, and 00 Cobra R's.....ie...higher performance and very limited edition of an existing production car. It added modest (relatively) performance gains at a much higher cost. I rarely hear anybody talk bad about that marketing scheme when it concerns the GNX....yet hear it a lot about the R's...especially the 2000.

Interesting.

5. Yup. IMHO, a 2002 stripper Z28 was the best "bang for buck" car ever made. For its time, a low-option 87/88 LX Coupe was a similar deal, but its hard to compare cars of such different generations.

Competition is indeed good. Speculation is certainly fun to read. Reality remains to be seen.

I'll probably hear from Doug again about this. Sorry dude.

Let me be right up front - I have no problem stating that I am basically clueless about the inner workings of the auto industry. I have never said nor implied anything to suggest otherwise, and would not pretend to be anything else. I am basically an enthusiasts and a racer (not the internet or magazine kind).

He (I assume Pacer is a he?) may be the worlds foremost expert in all this stuff. Good for him. However, that was not the motivation behind my replies. I will not revisit the issue in public, and like BigDarknFast, and out of respect for Doug and some other folks here, I will also tone down my responses - as evidenced by a couple of posts last evening in this thread.

I would add one more thing....read what is written in some of these replies - not what you think is written, or what you wish to read. I don't think anybody has categorically said "that won't happen" in reply to some of the predictions here. Further, one can only "eat crow" if one is proven wrong on something they stated would happen - with finality. I learned to not to walk down that slippery path many years ago.

PacerX

Do a search for "GM BOND ISSUE" on Google.

It'll detail what might be the slickest financial trick I know of - but I'm not an accountant, so I may screw some of this up.

GM took it's pension liability ($19,000,000,000 or so), which is required to be fully funded by the Federal Government, and converted part of it into bonds at an interest rate lower than that required if the debt was carried as a pension debt.

Translation:

Sell bonds and pay "X" amount of interest on the bonds, use the money from the issue to pay off the pension liability. The pension liability had an interest rate of "Y".

"Y"-"X"= cash in hand.

The bonds can be paid back at will (apart from the interest payments on the bonds).

Generally, pension funds were backed by stock purchases (purchases in other companies, you can no longer use your own company stock to back your pension fund - Enron anyone?). As the stock market rises and falls, so too does the value of the financial backing of the pension fund. Now, that's no longer an issue since the bonds are backed by the stock, and the pension fund is backed by the bonds.

Since the stock market is now rising, GM will take the profits from that rise and pay back the bonds with it.

The elimination of the liability came in three forms:

1) The bond issue. Somewhere between 10 and 16 billion dollars.

2) The sale of Hughes and part (only PART) of GMAC - I've heard numbers like $4,000,000,000 being thrown around here.

3) Cash payments to the fund. The last one was 3.3 BILLION dollars if memory serves me correctly.

That 3.3 billion was taken DIRECTLY from 3rd quarter profits.


Here's a good article:

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/...4_20031204.htm




Now, remember this... GM made this $3,300,000,000 cash payment IN THE MIDDLE OF AN INCENTIVE WAR. While every moron in the automotive press castigates GM for "not being able to sell cars without incentives", what they failed to realize (or didn't WANT to write about) is the fact that GM STILL MADE MONEY - LOTS OF MONEY.


By last count, Ford's pension fund was underfunded by $7,200,000,000 - and given Ford's credit rating, pulling off a trick like the bond issue by GM may be very difficult. Couple that with the fact that Ford can't seem to make money, and you have a situation that is bad on two fronts:

1) They can't afford a loser like the last Taurus, and the product development stream is getting choked.

2) There is less money available to build "prestige" projects like Cadillac Sixteens and specialty factories dedicated to making only high-performance, thunderously powerful, and exclusive motors. SVT WILL suffer from funding issues.