Makes sense. But that should still allow for a Buick or Cadillac Zeta? Or will Cadillac have only the CTS? Surely they wouldn't put an Ep2 Cadillac at the top of the line.

Speaking of which, if the current Epsilon FWD V6 cars (Malibu, Aura) weigh 3600-3650 pounds, what would an AWD V6 turbo Cadillac model weigh? Do I hear two tons?


Speaking of Alpha and Camaro, that would imply a V6 as the top engine option, right? You'd see plenty of mouth foaming there!

 

If we go back in history..when CAFE legislation came out...cars actually got larger..up until the late 70's. While my history may be wrong...I beleive that the speed CAFE was implemented was delayed several times because the automakers could not meet them. It was not untill the economic downturn/oil crisis of the late 70's when American's finally wanted, and needed smaller cars that the car companies actually made them. Since all the Japanese made at point were small cars..this is also when they grabbed their foothold. Also, the best years for large, RWD coupe were the late 70's also. If people continue to demand large..fast cars...and the market will support them...GM will make them. It makes no sense to build cars today for a fuel economy standard 10 years away..when your company a terrible year or two from being bankrupt.

Also remember...these standards are 13 years away...a lot can happen in that time politically..and technologically.

The worst thing is..a lot of the alternative propulsion methods out there are just as wastefull. Batteries are terrible for the environment. Electric, or plug in cars all get their power from the power grid..which is largely fed by fossil fuel. Hell..even most of the hydorgen made today (which would be used for fuel cell cars) is made using fosssil fuel in someway. Your just getting oil indirectly. Plus making every ICE powered car in the world obsolete is a environmental disaster waiting to happen.

The only way to use less fossile fuel immediatly is to make E85 and advanced versions of it readily available.

As for the GTO comments, we have to remember that Bob Lutz also said we would not get a Camaro for 30 years. We also need to remember that the Monaro was basically engineered into the platform to begin with...so all it takes is slow G8 sales..or basically anything that does not keep Holden's line running full bore...and I think the GTO/Monaro would be greenlighted and bought to market quick.

 

Who knows, all pure speculation at this point.
But I'll tell you something. A 3,400 lbs, G35 sized Camaro, with a normally aspirated GenV 6.2L smallblock.............gives me goosebumps.

 

Good thing I already have a GTO

 

Sure. But is it feasible? Could you add two seats to the 'vette and keep it to 3400 pounds (and the price under $50K)?

I mean, this is just a bulletin board, so we don't have to be realistic, but if we are being realistic, I think this would be tough.

 

I thought the Alpha Torana was 3 series in size. I dont like the 1 series its a box. Torana seems to pull it off nicely though.


Does anyone know if BMW lifted the current 3 series look from the Torana concept. The 2004 3 series is a box. The 2007 3 series has alot of the Torana's shape after the fact. I think BMW screwed up the 6 series in 08 and took some of the muscle from the 3 series giving it less muscle and more of a slanted hood.

 

Realistic? Yes. Easy? No.

Look, we've been so mind numbingly conditioned lately,that our performace cars MUST weigh two tons. Time for a new paradigm.

 

We've also been given V8's for under $30k. I would bet a paycheck that we we won't see a North American made, V8, 3400lb pony car for under $30k ever again. AL is too costly.

Charlie, the car you are suggesting would cost about the same as the G37 coupe if it came from Ford or Chevy.

Alpha's top engine from the factory will be a turbo V6. A V8 simply won't be happening IMO.

 

I don't know what Alpha's final form will be - but I agree the emphasis is on four and perhaps six cylinder powerplants.

But just as GM tore up a 2 ton, 4 door, sedan architecture to create a 5th gen Camaro, would the pontential exist to create a suitable platform FROM Alpha? Like I said, pure speculation.

 

Hmm, maybe a good point. But from the way GM is setting themselves up to be burned on F5 (cancelling all the supporting vehicles), I don't think they will be taking any leaps on the next gen. I think if F6 is based on Alpha it will be more along the lines of how conventional sedan/coupe shared platforms go (coupe being smaller than sedan). You could do it as you suggest behind the front wheels, but it's the engine bay modificaitons that get expensive.

That being said, I fully understand I am talking about something that won't be in showrooms for 5-7 years...

 

A new paradirm? Here? That's crazy talk!

But honestly....would the lack of a V8 be a deal breaker? Not to me.

Aside from the soundtrack, V6s are getting power in the LS1 neighborhood. And add the fact a V6 will weigh less than a V8, you've got the potential for a car with LS1 times and much better handling and overall dynamics and LESS WEIGHT than the porker the 5th gen is turning out to be. Hyundia's Genesis coupe could very well be the blueprint for the new ponycar.

My god it might even look good. Bring it on.

 

Or...if GM really wants to continue with Camaro, the business plan would dictate getting it off of Zeta at the earliest possible convenience.

Just thinking out loud.....

 

Read what Lutz said again guys. He suggested there may be a future crossover (or two) in Zeta's future.

 

While I think GM is ultimatly concerned about CAFE and weight...the fact of the matter is...their financial situation will only allow them to build what people want today. As I said in my earlier posts...Detroit made large cars well into the late 70's despite CAFE. It was not untill Americans finally wanted, and needed smaller cars (and started buying import ones) that Detroit tore up their architectures. A large chunk of the weight in cars today is not so much features as it is all the saftey crap that comes with airbags, nine stability control systems, and so forth. Automakers are not making car deliberatly heavy...the more a car weights..the more crap you have to put in it..and the more it costs to make. The biggest obstacle you will have is that most people can not pay what an aluminum intensive car costs...and I don't think anyone is willing to make the moral trade of less safety for higher gas milage.

 

I don't see why the VE/Zeta platform is imploding and can't be allowed to continue.

OK they're "big" cars, so what, they're not that big and certainly smaller and more efficient than full-size trucks and SUVs or the big cars that came before them for that matter. Before the new regs come in wasn't Zeta II projected to be on the road - why not just make weight control in that and any follow-on platform a priority? It's not like work on the next gen RWD platform wouldn't have been started at least in a preliminary way already. There's still lots of time between now and then. There will still be a market and demand for larger vehicles despite CAFE.... it's like the Dark Ages for RWD cars is about to hit again