Monaro dead as Camaro and Torana loom
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From: Australia
Monaro dead as Camaro and Torana loom
Taken from goauto.com.au.
Holden poised to develop Torana and introduce Camaro as soaring fuel kills Monaro
By BYRON MATHIOUDAKIS 16 January 2008
GENERAL MOTORS has confirmed that a VE Commodore-based Monaro is a non-starter for now, as Holden is set to lead any pending development of the smaller rear-drive Torana.
Speaking at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, GM ‘car czar’ Bob Lutz sounded the Monaro’s death knell loud and clear.
“I think (the Monaro/Pontiac GTO) is gone for now,” Mr Lutz said.
“We’ve got nothing in the product plan right now like that. We’d like to have, but you can’t do everything.”
However, the ebullient senior GM executive then went on to raise hopes that the Holden-developed but Canadian-built Chevrolet Camaro – due to be launched globally next year – might be imported into Australia as a sort of Monaro replacement instead.
While Mr Lutz stopped short of actually announcing the Camaro for Australia (“I don’t think I should be put in a position of confirming vehicle introductions for Australia”), he did say that its basic architecture was designed from the outset for a right-hand drive configuration.
“You’ll have to ask (new Holden managing director and CEO Mark Reuss),” he teased.
“But let’s put it this way: since right-hand drive is available in the (Camaro’s VE Commodore-based Zeta) architecture, and since we would like to obviously sell some in Singapore, the UK and even the odd one in Japan, there is certainly a distinct possibility that it could be sold in Australia.”
Mr Lutz revealed that he halted the development of, or killed off, some future Zeta-based vehicles such as the Monaro and a proposed rear-wheel drive Impala V8, as GM seeks to downsize its range in order for it to meet the US Government’s new Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) legislation, which requires manufacturers to reach a fleet average of 35 miles per gallon (6.72L/100km) by 2020.
“In terms of fuel economy, that’s not the end of the market where we want to stimulate demand,” Mr Lutz explained.
“We have to find ways to stimulate demand and desirability in cars that will get us closer to the 35 MPG average.
“Because the Monaro and the (VE Commodore sedan-based Pontiac) G8 – as good as they are, and even though we can emphasise V6 engines over a V8 and at some point put in a hybrid system etc – are not going to get us to the 35 (figure).”
It is becoming clear that the ‘Alpha’ Torana – as well as SUVs that ditch the truck-base chassis for a Zeta-derived monocoque construction – might be a smarter solution to help the GM fleet meet the 2020 CAFE target.
However, Mr Lutz also warned that the future CAFE laws do not automatically green-light the Torana.
“Torana is a rear-wheel drive vehicle smaller than the Zeta architecture and smaller than the current CTS Cadillac architecture. It is, or would be, about the size of a BMW 1 Series – maybe just a tiny bit bigger to enable larger wheels.
“Now that is the architecture that has been bandied about the US press under the name of ‘Alpha Architecture’, and Alpha is still under consideration, but we haven’t kicked off any design work or any engineering work because we have to sort our way through this 35 MPG task.
“As a lightweight rear-wheel drive car that is going to add about 1MPG compared to an equivalent lightweight front-wheel drive car – we just have to sort of wait awhile and see where we are.”
Nevertheless, Mr Lutz was keen to keep Holden very much in the picture should the Torana go ahead.
“If we proceed with the Alpha Architecture, I think it is safe to say that Holden would be vitally interested in participating in that project.”
Holden in Australia is now GM’s global ‘Home Room’ for middle-to-large rear-wheel drive vehicles including sedans and utilities.
Home Room is GM-speak for the GM division that is responsible for all the development of a particular architecture.
Mr Lutz also singled out GM-DAT in South Korea as GM’s centre for light cars, Opel in Germany for small and medium-sized front-wheel drive vehicles and their derivatives, Brazil for Hummer and the United States as the Home Room for Cadillac, Corvette, the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky convertibles, and full-sized truck and utilities/SUVs.
By BYRON MATHIOUDAKIS 16 January 2008
GENERAL MOTORS has confirmed that a VE Commodore-based Monaro is a non-starter for now, as Holden is set to lead any pending development of the smaller rear-drive Torana.
Speaking at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, GM ‘car czar’ Bob Lutz sounded the Monaro’s death knell loud and clear.
“I think (the Monaro/Pontiac GTO) is gone for now,” Mr Lutz said.
“We’ve got nothing in the product plan right now like that. We’d like to have, but you can’t do everything.”
However, the ebullient senior GM executive then went on to raise hopes that the Holden-developed but Canadian-built Chevrolet Camaro – due to be launched globally next year – might be imported into Australia as a sort of Monaro replacement instead.
While Mr Lutz stopped short of actually announcing the Camaro for Australia (“I don’t think I should be put in a position of confirming vehicle introductions for Australia”), he did say that its basic architecture was designed from the outset for a right-hand drive configuration.
“You’ll have to ask (new Holden managing director and CEO Mark Reuss),” he teased.
“But let’s put it this way: since right-hand drive is available in the (Camaro’s VE Commodore-based Zeta) architecture, and since we would like to obviously sell some in Singapore, the UK and even the odd one in Japan, there is certainly a distinct possibility that it could be sold in Australia.”
Mr Lutz revealed that he halted the development of, or killed off, some future Zeta-based vehicles such as the Monaro and a proposed rear-wheel drive Impala V8, as GM seeks to downsize its range in order for it to meet the US Government’s new Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) legislation, which requires manufacturers to reach a fleet average of 35 miles per gallon (6.72L/100km) by 2020.
“In terms of fuel economy, that’s not the end of the market where we want to stimulate demand,” Mr Lutz explained.
“We have to find ways to stimulate demand and desirability in cars that will get us closer to the 35 MPG average.
“Because the Monaro and the (VE Commodore sedan-based Pontiac) G8 – as good as they are, and even though we can emphasise V6 engines over a V8 and at some point put in a hybrid system etc – are not going to get us to the 35 (figure).”
It is becoming clear that the ‘Alpha’ Torana – as well as SUVs that ditch the truck-base chassis for a Zeta-derived monocoque construction – might be a smarter solution to help the GM fleet meet the 2020 CAFE target.
However, Mr Lutz also warned that the future CAFE laws do not automatically green-light the Torana.
“Torana is a rear-wheel drive vehicle smaller than the Zeta architecture and smaller than the current CTS Cadillac architecture. It is, or would be, about the size of a BMW 1 Series – maybe just a tiny bit bigger to enable larger wheels.
“Now that is the architecture that has been bandied about the US press under the name of ‘Alpha Architecture’, and Alpha is still under consideration, but we haven’t kicked off any design work or any engineering work because we have to sort our way through this 35 MPG task.
“As a lightweight rear-wheel drive car that is going to add about 1MPG compared to an equivalent lightweight front-wheel drive car – we just have to sort of wait awhile and see where we are.”
Nevertheless, Mr Lutz was keen to keep Holden very much in the picture should the Torana go ahead.
“If we proceed with the Alpha Architecture, I think it is safe to say that Holden would be vitally interested in participating in that project.”
Holden in Australia is now GM’s global ‘Home Room’ for middle-to-large rear-wheel drive vehicles including sedans and utilities.
Home Room is GM-speak for the GM division that is responsible for all the development of a particular architecture.
Mr Lutz also singled out GM-DAT in South Korea as GM’s centre for light cars, Opel in Germany for small and medium-sized front-wheel drive vehicles and their derivatives, Brazil for Hummer and the United States as the Home Room for Cadillac, Corvette, the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky convertibles, and full-sized truck and utilities/SUVs.
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From: Santa Clara, CA
It does beg the question as to what will be built in Oshawa. Maybe Camaro, G8, a Buick, and a Cadillac will be all that we get from Zeta in the U.S. Presumably the Cadillac and the Buick would be built in Oshawa too?
Or just the Buick? Or nothing (except Camaro)?
If GM does not build an Alpha/Torana, I'm afraid there will be plenty of others that do build that size car, and prospective customers will not be swayed by the "1mpg more for our FWD car" talk.
Or just the Buick? Or nothing (except Camaro)?
If GM does not build an Alpha/Torana, I'm afraid there will be plenty of others that do build that size car, and prospective customers will not be swayed by the "1mpg more for our FWD car" talk.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
That is music to my ears.
To all the donkeys who ask, "how would you feel if your Monaro was replaced with an imported Camaro?" Eeeeee-aaawwww!!!
Now to develop a long term plan on how to sneak the surprise past the minister for finance.
To all the donkeys who ask, "how would you feel if your Monaro was replaced with an imported Camaro?" Eeeeee-aaawwww!!!
Now to develop a long term plan on how to sneak the surprise past the minister for finance.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Btw, if Camaro lobs downunder minus that Chev badge on the grille, Holden might be able to get away with calling it the "Holden Camaro".
Otherwise, it wouldn't make a lot of sense calling it a Chevy unless more Chevs arrive to give Camaro some impetus.
Otherwise, it wouldn't make a lot of sense calling it a Chevy unless more Chevs arrive to give Camaro some impetus.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,400
From: Michigan's left coast
How much of this is being driven by concerns about fuel economy, and how much of this comes from the fact that GM simply does not have a lot of free cash floating around to invest in relatively low-volume products?
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,406
From: Philaduhphia
I think it's a mix of both. GM is trying to stay alive and knows that it just doesn't make sense to build a quality 40mpg Aveo to stay alive. Though, a rear engine, rear wheel drive 1.4L turbo Inline 4 with DI, DOD(shutting off 1 when cruising and 2 when idling), could be very interesting to stay at. Trunk space? In the front silly. But would only work in the Aveo5.
^don't listen to that, I'm just rambling.
If GM can't bring a G8 wagon, or the Ute, it definitely can't be thinking about vehicles that are volume enough to affect CAFE.
^don't listen to that, I'm just rambling.
If GM can't bring a G8 wagon, or the Ute, it definitely can't be thinking about vehicles that are volume enough to affect CAFE.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Listen guys, the next GTO has been dead for over two years, the next Monaro for almost that long. That part is not news. The news part is that the Zeta program is imploding.
The VE/Zeta programs have been struggling with weight from day number one. As CAFE now looms, GM needs to decide where to spend it's money. Several hundred thousand 2 ton cars per year, (ie., Zeta), is probably not the smartest place to put your money right now, if you're GM.
We'll see what Alpha does for us.
The VE/Zeta programs have been struggling with weight from day number one. As CAFE now looms, GM needs to decide where to spend it's money. Several hundred thousand 2 ton cars per year, (ie., Zeta), is probably not the smartest place to put your money right now, if you're GM.
We'll see what Alpha does for us.
Last edited by Z284ever; Jan 16, 2008 at 09:05 AM.
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From: Greenville, SC
GM sells, what, 9 million vehicles a year? Cars like the Camaro only represent ~1% of GM's world wide sales and approximately ~2.5-3% of the 3.9 million US sales per year. As far as CAFE is concerned, cars like the Camaro and Corvette shouldn't affect GM much at all, BUT a (relatively) low mpg rwd Impala would hurt because of sales volume. GM NEEDS a GOOD SELLING compact that gets 40+ mpg. Something people would WANT to drive. Basically GM needs to find "their" corolla...
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From: Philaduhphia
People don't WANT to drive a Corolla, they want to drive a Lexus. They drive a Corolla becuase it fits into their budget*, it's reliable*, and is practical*. Everything the Aveo is, without the perception.
*All are of my own opinion and should not be used for any comparison when crosshopping compact vehicles.
*All are of my own opinion and should not be used for any comparison when crosshopping compact vehicles.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,897
From: Greenville, SC
People don't WANT to drive a Corolla, they want to drive a Lexus. They drive a Corolla becuase it fits into their budget*, it's reliable*, and is practical*. Everything the Aveo is, without the perception.
*All are of my own opinion and should not be used for any comparison when crosshopping compact vehicles.
*All are of my own opinion and should not be used for any comparison when crosshopping compact vehicles.
(I'm agreeing with you)
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 610
From: Akron, OH.
GM sells, what, 9 million vehicles a year? Cars like the Camaro only represent ~1% of GM's world wide sales and approximately ~2.5-3% of the 3.9 million US sales per year. As far as CAFE is concerned, cars like the Camaro and Corvette shouldn't affect GM much at all, BUT a (relatively) low mpg rwd Impala would hurt because of sales volume. GM NEEDS a GOOD SELLING compact that gets 40+ mpg. Something people would WANT to drive. Basically GM needs to find "their" corolla...
Last edited by Flip94ta; Jan 16, 2008 at 10:50 AM.
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Posts: 1,897
From: Greenville, SC
Edit: After a quick net search, it looks like GM sold approximately 57% "trucks" (trucks, vans, suvs) vs cars last year, so that's about 2.2 million trucks
Last edited by Silverado C-10; Jan 16, 2008 at 12:45 PM.
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From: Oakland, California
SUVs that ditch the truck-base chassis for a Zeta-derived monocoque construction – might be a smarter solution to help the GM fleet meet the 2020 CAFE target.
I can see the Mustang guys now... "yeah, well your Camaro is based off an SUV!"
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,448
From: Irving, TX
People don't WANT to drive a Corolla, they want to drive a Lexus. They drive a Corolla becuase it fits into their budget*, it's reliable*, and is practical*. Everything the Aveo is, without the perception.
*All are of my own opinion and should not be used for any comparison when crosshopping compact vehicles.
*All are of my own opinion and should not be used for any comparison when crosshopping compact vehicles.
Also, a better comparison is the corolla vs the cobalt. The aveo is more like a yaris.
26/35mpg for the Corolla
22/31mpg for the Cobalt.
4mpg in both city and highway, that will have a big advantage with 2020 CAFE. GM really needs a better, more fuel efficient Cobalt.
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Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Listen guys, the next GTO has been dead for over two years, the next Monaro for almost that long. That part is not news. The news part is that the Zeta program is imploding.
The VE/Zeta programs have been struggling with weight from day number one. As CAFE now looms, GM needs to decide where to spend it's money. Several hundred thousand 2 ton cars per year, (ie., Zeta), is probably not the smartest place to put your money right now, if you're GM.
We'll see what Alpha does for us.
The VE/Zeta programs have been struggling with weight from day number one. As CAFE now looms, GM needs to decide where to spend it's money. Several hundred thousand 2 ton cars per year, (ie., Zeta), is probably not the smartest place to put your money right now, if you're GM.
We'll see what Alpha does for us.
Doggone you C, would you just throw some garble on the table and yak like most internet posters do!
Excellent post.
I think that same issue looms large for Ford and Chrysler as well.
I have questioned the approach of offering 2, 3 or even 4 models that all have the same basic dimensions, layout, and even powertrains, only because each company's 3 or 4 brands wants their own model. Likewise, how do you offer a pepped-up Fusion right beside a basic Taurus on the same showroom floor and not overlap markets tremendously?
I think we will see all of them start paring down on mass-offerings with minimal differences, and start looking at more flexible platfors that offer access to multiple power sources (i.e. diesel, bio, electric, hybrid, etc.).
To go one step further, I think we will begin to see the move towards developing electrically motivated vehicles ratcheted up a few notches in the next 12 months.
"Cafe? What stinking CAFE... I don't see no stinking CAFE in through my electrially-powered vehicle's windshield."