A message from Bob Lutz......
#137
#138
I'd happily run E85 in my Impala (11.7:1 compression ratio) if I could find someplace locally that carried it. Seeing as how the closest place is 50 miles away and that I'd be lucky to get 200 miles on a tank, this is not currently a workable solution.
My concern with E85 has little to do with performance - hell, if some of the fastest oval-track and quarter-mile guys can go fast on alcohol, that obviously bodes well for the rest of us speedfreaks. I'm just not yet convinced that it's a practical replacement for the volume of petroleum that we currently consume in the transportation sector, and I think that it's going to take a lot more than a simple fuel substitution to form a long-term solution. The longer we put off acceptance of that reality, the more uncomfortable the changes will be.
#139
FWIW... a story in today's USAToday....
http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...terstitialskip
http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...terstitialskip
Ethanol E85 fuel loses cost-benefit test to diesel
Anything's better than ethanol blend E85, even ordinary gasoline, a new cost-benefit analysis of alternative fuels by researcher John Graham at the Pardee Rand Graduate School finds.
Diesels scored highest, surprising even the researchers. "We were kind of expecting that hybrids would outperform diesels when we went into the study. It's close, but the advanced diesel" provides better performance and fuel economy for the price, he says.
Compared to gasoline, a driver could spend as much as $1,600 more on fuel over a vehicle's life burning E85, a mix of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, Graham calculates, while a diesel could save as much as $2,300.
Diesels are just creeping back into the USA as automakers introduce clean-burning models that meet new pollution rules.
The study, which Graham plans to discuss today at a National Academy of Sciences roundtable in Washington, undercuts E85 at a time Detroit automakers are lobbying Congress for ethanol-supportive legislation and fuel-economy credits for building E85-compatible vehicles.
General Motors (GM) and Ford Motor, (F) both pro-ethanol, are among companies that support the Rand school. "They aren't crazy about the results," Graham says.
The study also comes just as ethanol organizations are ramping up promotion of so-called intermediate blends of ethanol fuel, such as E20 — 20% ethanol and 80% gasoline — that they say could safely be used in conventional vehicles. Automakers currently limit regular vehicles to E10 blends, saying heavier concentrations of ethanol could damage fuel systems.
"Do we jump from E10 to E85? That's not a logical leap. That's why we're looking at these intermediate blends," says Brian Jennings, executive vice president at the American Coalition for Ethanol.
Graham's team calculated the individual and societal costs and benefits of conventional gasoline vehicles, gasoline-electric hybrids, high-tech diesels and flex-fuel vehicles burning E85 full time. Conclusion: Unless gasoline prices, averaging $3.10 a gallon now, rise above $4 and average $3.50 or more the next few years, or ethanol prices drop a lot, diesel's the best overall solution; E85's the worst.
Ethanol has less than 70% of the energy of gasoline, so more ethanol in the blend means fewer miles per gallon. Adjusted for lower energy content, E85 averaged about $3.25, AAA reported Thursday.
Drawbacks outweigh the high marks ethanol gets for adding almost nothing to the cost of a vehicle modified to burn E85 and for energy independence, Graham's team concluded. Ethanol is made from grain, mainly corn.
Graham, dean at school in Santa Monica, Calif., earlier worked at the U.S. Office of Management and Budget and founded the Harvard Center for Risk Analysis.
Rand is a non-profit corporation that researches public policy issues.
Anything's better than ethanol blend E85, even ordinary gasoline, a new cost-benefit analysis of alternative fuels by researcher John Graham at the Pardee Rand Graduate School finds.
Diesels scored highest, surprising even the researchers. "We were kind of expecting that hybrids would outperform diesels when we went into the study. It's close, but the advanced diesel" provides better performance and fuel economy for the price, he says.
Compared to gasoline, a driver could spend as much as $1,600 more on fuel over a vehicle's life burning E85, a mix of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, Graham calculates, while a diesel could save as much as $2,300.
Diesels are just creeping back into the USA as automakers introduce clean-burning models that meet new pollution rules.
The study, which Graham plans to discuss today at a National Academy of Sciences roundtable in Washington, undercuts E85 at a time Detroit automakers are lobbying Congress for ethanol-supportive legislation and fuel-economy credits for building E85-compatible vehicles.
General Motors (GM) and Ford Motor, (F) both pro-ethanol, are among companies that support the Rand school. "They aren't crazy about the results," Graham says.
The study also comes just as ethanol organizations are ramping up promotion of so-called intermediate blends of ethanol fuel, such as E20 — 20% ethanol and 80% gasoline — that they say could safely be used in conventional vehicles. Automakers currently limit regular vehicles to E10 blends, saying heavier concentrations of ethanol could damage fuel systems.
"Do we jump from E10 to E85? That's not a logical leap. That's why we're looking at these intermediate blends," says Brian Jennings, executive vice president at the American Coalition for Ethanol.
Graham's team calculated the individual and societal costs and benefits of conventional gasoline vehicles, gasoline-electric hybrids, high-tech diesels and flex-fuel vehicles burning E85 full time. Conclusion: Unless gasoline prices, averaging $3.10 a gallon now, rise above $4 and average $3.50 or more the next few years, or ethanol prices drop a lot, diesel's the best overall solution; E85's the worst.
Ethanol has less than 70% of the energy of gasoline, so more ethanol in the blend means fewer miles per gallon. Adjusted for lower energy content, E85 averaged about $3.25, AAA reported Thursday.
Drawbacks outweigh the high marks ethanol gets for adding almost nothing to the cost of a vehicle modified to burn E85 and for energy independence, Graham's team concluded. Ethanol is made from grain, mainly corn.
Graham, dean at school in Santa Monica, Calif., earlier worked at the U.S. Office of Management and Budget and founded the Harvard Center for Risk Analysis.
Rand is a non-profit corporation that researches public policy issues.
#140
Ethanol is just really starting to get off it's feet. GM and Ford are on the right track by preparing their vehicles for it - even if the first few don't actually use it.
Give it a few years to become more available, become more easily produced (cellulosic) and I think Ethanol will eclipse gas and Diesel prices.
Mind, you...today, in this very moment...I agree with them, diesel is a better cost-effective fuel right now.
Give it a few years to become more available, become more easily produced (cellulosic) and I think Ethanol will eclipse gas and Diesel prices.
Mind, you...today, in this very moment...I agree with them, diesel is a better cost-effective fuel right now.
#141
#142
Scott, with the recent word that Congress has a bill on the table now that will mandate a 35 MPG average CAFE standard by 2020, if this passes what, if anything, will that do to future Camaro plans? I know the Camaro is all go now, and nothing can stop it for the first generation of the 5 generation. But what could happen after that? I know Bob Lutz himself said that bill could seriously alter GM's plans for the future. What I'm hoping for it that if it does, that means more changes with full sized SUVs than cars. I'd hate to see the Camaro have to be watered down like it was in the early 1980's (4 cylinder Berlinetta anyone?) to meet insipid rules.
I would hope there is enough technology in the pipeline now at GM that would make it possible to ballance out the sides of economy and performance. If not, tell me, is there REALLY a need for a 13 MPG Cadillac Escallade ESV? What can that suv do that a Buick Enclave can't, besides guzzle gas?
I would hope there is enough technology in the pipeline now at GM that would make it possible to ballance out the sides of economy and performance. If not, tell me, is there REALLY a need for a 13 MPG Cadillac Escallade ESV? What can that suv do that a Buick Enclave can't, besides guzzle gas?
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