Make the case for a mid level V8
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From: The Golden State
Originally posted by DarthIROC
BUt we come back to teh point of that really being GMS fault for not advertising, and dealers only stocking the SS's. Had more pople been aware they could get a Z28 for a decent price they would have sold more. Like others have said towards the end many people ddint know Z28s were stilll made.
If GMs advertises all their models and the public is fully aware of which models are avaliable and which they can afford, I think it could work.
BUt we come back to teh point of that really being GMS fault for not advertising, and dealers only stocking the SS's. Had more pople been aware they could get a Z28 for a decent price they would have sold more. Like others have said towards the end many people ddint know Z28s were stilll made.
If GMs advertises all their models and the public is fully aware of which models are avaliable and which they can afford, I think it could work.
But dealers stock what they can sell. They are the ones actually buying the cars, and if a car sells, they'll stock it. That's why it's hard to find a Chevy dealer that doesn't have 2/3s his inventory being trucks & SUVs. Even before GM pulled advertising, entry level Z28s sat on lots.
Sounds like the makings of a new poll.
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...hreadid=219102
Last edited by guionM; Jan 30, 2004 at 01:51 PM.
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From: Ohio
Originally posted by guionM
Exactly right!
But....Big problem: Try telling the decision makers following these things that a low priced V8 or a mid grade V8 will sell. Base Z28s weren't exactly known for their great sales. Combine that with additional the cost of certifying the 5.3 V8 and the fact that GM made more money on the greater sales of the high optioned Z28s & SSs (and even fully equpted V6 RS'), and you begin to see that trying to put a case together for this type of car is something that can cause nightmares.
Then throw into the mix the massive horsepower intoxicated crowd that is the traditional Camaro buyer (I made a thread about something like this back in September), and it becomes even more impossible.
No wonder Scott smokes so much!
Exactly right!
But....Big problem: Try telling the decision makers following these things that a low priced V8 or a mid grade V8 will sell. Base Z28s weren't exactly known for their great sales. Combine that with additional the cost of certifying the 5.3 V8 and the fact that GM made more money on the greater sales of the high optioned Z28s & SSs (and even fully equpted V6 RS'), and you begin to see that trying to put a case together for this type of car is something that can cause nightmares.
Then throw into the mix the massive horsepower intoxicated crowd that is the traditional Camaro buyer (I made a thread about something like this back in September), and it becomes even more impossible.
No wonder Scott smokes so much!
Well, I think the late 3rd Gens proved that the system worked... many, many base car buyers opted for the 5.0 TBI. Another thing that may have helped was that the upgraded 16" wheels where only available if you ordered the V8... (there goes more of that forced option stuff...
)But, after the base model V8 showed to be so popular, they dropped it completely with the 4th Gen.
A lot of time has passed since 1992. But I think it would draw a lot of people... assuming the price was right.
Another HUGE help, would be if a sister car on the same line as Camaro was utilizing the engine...
Last edited by Darth Xed; Jan 30, 2004 at 01:38 PM.
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Yes, I agree with guionM. Only case I can think of is to extract more money out of the consumer, if they agree on the price/value equation..
If its easy for them to take two similar V8's, and effectively cap one for a lower hp rating with little cost, then they can sell the mid hp model for say $30k, and the hi hp model for $35k.. If the consumer buys into this, then they'll rake in the loot.
vs just sellinga hi hp model for $32 or even $30k..
If anything I suspect if they made 1 hi po'd V8 5th gen, they'll be able to sell 35,000 for $25k and still make money.. vs selling 35,000 $23k V6 base models and 15,000 $28k V8 models (minus the cost of making/designing two different models and testing them). I'm just throwing these figures in the air and don't have any idea abotu the actual calculations and stuff.. but I'd bet stuff like this is argued all the time..
If its easy for them to take two similar V8's, and effectively cap one for a lower hp rating with little cost, then they can sell the mid hp model for say $30k, and the hi hp model for $35k.. If the consumer buys into this, then they'll rake in the loot.
vs just sellinga hi hp model for $32 or even $30k..
If anything I suspect if they made 1 hi po'd V8 5th gen, they'll be able to sell 35,000 for $25k and still make money.. vs selling 35,000 $23k V6 base models and 15,000 $28k V8 models (minus the cost of making/designing two different models and testing them). I'm just throwing these figures in the air and don't have any idea abotu the actual calculations and stuff.. but I'd bet stuff like this is argued all the time..
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"And I can promise you that no one less than Redplanet himself will point out that the Z28 was a sleeper because it looked exactly like a base Camaro, easily identified at a distance only by the small red Chevy bowtie under the right side taillight.
He would also point out the RS was the flashy one short of the SS."
GuionM:
Allow me to clarify : I was referring to the third gens. on this. Sorry for the confusion. A 4th gen RS is a joke to me.
He would also point out the RS was the flashy one short of the SS."
GuionM:
Allow me to clarify : I was referring to the third gens. on this. Sorry for the confusion. A 4th gen RS is a joke to me.
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From: Arlington, Texas
I didn't have time to read this entire thread, so forgive me if this is a repeat.
One thing I think most of us can agree upon is that Z28 really should be moved to a more niche roll. The way GM is positioning its lineups, I don't think there's a need for a Z28 between base and SS anymore. I thought the Firebird really had it right, in that the Formula was basically the Firebird w/ a V8 option (which also included the hardware necessary to support the engine). And with the T/A, you KNEW you were getting the uplevel car. W/ the Camaro, as is often mentioned, the Z was almost indistinguishable from the base. My personal feeling is that w/ the SS now the "halo" Camaro, the Z28 doesn't need to be the "base car w/ the V8 engine" that it turned into in the 4th gen.
I think the midlevel has a place, and here it is. IF Camaro had a Base, SS, and Z28....Base would be as it was before, but w/ the V8 option and associated tranny, suspension components. Same wheels (or maybe an optional set), but basically you knew you were getting the base car w/ the upgraded engine (3rd gen 5.0 car here). The SS/Z28 models would have different engines altogether, 6.0's or whatever, so there wouldn't really be any overlap in performance. The buyer of the Base car w/ the V8 would be the guy or girl that wanted the V8, but not the spoilers, hood, bigger wheels/tires, tougher suspension, ect. They just wanted a nice sport coupe w/ V8 attitude (Mustang GT?) Obviously if you wanted to really bring the heat, you'd get the SS. And I really hope that SLP or someone could work out a Z06 type Z28, even though it wouldn't sell that much probably, if thats what you were after, you could get it.
So it goes like this...
Base- V6 (250hp) optional 5.3ish V8 (300hp?)-most options
SS- 6.0 (400hp)-all options available
Z28- 6.0 (400hp, w/ possible SLP optional exhausts and such which maybe gives you 430hp)-factory built autocross type car, hardtop only, manual only, somewhat limited content. Only the guys that really wanted one would buy them.
So there you go, hope it't not a repost.
One thing I think most of us can agree upon is that Z28 really should be moved to a more niche roll. The way GM is positioning its lineups, I don't think there's a need for a Z28 between base and SS anymore. I thought the Firebird really had it right, in that the Formula was basically the Firebird w/ a V8 option (which also included the hardware necessary to support the engine). And with the T/A, you KNEW you were getting the uplevel car. W/ the Camaro, as is often mentioned, the Z was almost indistinguishable from the base. My personal feeling is that w/ the SS now the "halo" Camaro, the Z28 doesn't need to be the "base car w/ the V8 engine" that it turned into in the 4th gen.
I think the midlevel has a place, and here it is. IF Camaro had a Base, SS, and Z28....Base would be as it was before, but w/ the V8 option and associated tranny, suspension components. Same wheels (or maybe an optional set), but basically you knew you were getting the base car w/ the upgraded engine (3rd gen 5.0 car here). The SS/Z28 models would have different engines altogether, 6.0's or whatever, so there wouldn't really be any overlap in performance. The buyer of the Base car w/ the V8 would be the guy or girl that wanted the V8, but not the spoilers, hood, bigger wheels/tires, tougher suspension, ect. They just wanted a nice sport coupe w/ V8 attitude (Mustang GT?) Obviously if you wanted to really bring the heat, you'd get the SS. And I really hope that SLP or someone could work out a Z06 type Z28, even though it wouldn't sell that much probably, if thats what you were after, you could get it.
So it goes like this...
Base- V6 (250hp) optional 5.3ish V8 (300hp?)-most options
SS- 6.0 (400hp)-all options available
Z28- 6.0 (400hp, w/ possible SLP optional exhausts and such which maybe gives you 430hp)-factory built autocross type car, hardtop only, manual only, somewhat limited content. Only the guys that really wanted one would buy them.
So there you go, hope it't not a repost.
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From: Detroit
Originally posted by CLEAN
So it goes like this...
Base- V6 (250hp) optional 5.3ish V8 (300hp?)-most options
SS- 6.0 (400hp)-all options available
Z28- 6.0 (400hp, w/ possible SLP optional exhausts and such which maybe gives you 430hp)-factory built autocross type car, hardtop only, manual only, somewhat limited content. Only the guys that really wanted one would buy them.
So it goes like this...
Base- V6 (250hp) optional 5.3ish V8 (300hp?)-most options
SS- 6.0 (400hp)-all options available
Z28- 6.0 (400hp, w/ possible SLP optional exhausts and such which maybe gives you 430hp)-factory built autocross type car, hardtop only, manual only, somewhat limited content. Only the guys that really wanted one would buy them.
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From: Teeter-tottering between Brilliance and Insanity
The only problem I have with that line-up is theres no close to stripper car with the highest output engine avaliable. So you can get a cheap but relaly fast car.
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From: Albany, NY
Originally posted by DarthIROC
The only problem I have with that line-up is theres no close to stripper car with the highest output engine avaliable. So you can get a cheap but relaly fast car.
The only problem I have with that line-up is theres no close to stripper car with the highest output engine avaliable. So you can get a cheap but relaly fast car.
I don't think there is much of a market for stripper cars anymore, only 0.001% of new car buyers would probably choose A/C delete.
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From: Hou,TX
Originally posted by guionM
snipped.....
Mustang had a V8 for the price of a Firebird V6, and price was a big concern for them. The "310 horsepower" comment was a red herring, since they stated they wanted a V8 anyway and took a contradictory position on the whole engine issue.
Based on your story, a mid level V8 would not have made a sale for you. A better price comparison with the Mustang GT V8 would have.
Not sure I follow you here. You start off saying muscle cars cry for a V8, then you are describing something that isn't a muscle car. Muscle cars are "a pavement terror" as you put it. If it isn't, it isn't a muscle car. The V6 base Camaro outruns every 3rd gen Camaro except the final 5.7 versions. That's the real deal. If anyone today wants a V8, they want a pavement scorcher.
We just happen to want it without paying nearly $30,000 for it. A very VERY reasonable request, and the point I suspect you are really trying to make.
snipped.....
Mustang had a V8 for the price of a Firebird V6, and price was a big concern for them. The "310 horsepower" comment was a red herring, since they stated they wanted a V8 anyway and took a contradictory position on the whole engine issue.
Based on your story, a mid level V8 would not have made a sale for you. A better price comparison with the Mustang GT V8 would have.
Not sure I follow you here. You start off saying muscle cars cry for a V8, then you are describing something that isn't a muscle car. Muscle cars are "a pavement terror" as you put it. If it isn't, it isn't a muscle car. The V6 base Camaro outruns every 3rd gen Camaro except the final 5.7 versions. That's the real deal. If anyone today wants a V8, they want a pavement scorcher.
We just happen to want it without paying nearly $30,000 for it. A very VERY reasonable request, and the point I suspect you are really trying to make.
I doubt that the 200hp? V6 would outrun the 305 TPI 5spd. But go ahead post that claim on thirdgen.org.
Furthermore, you're arguing that a 300hp LSx wouldn't be a pavement scorcher to most people?
So it's either this mid 15 sec V6 with nice options or a stripper Z/28 with high 12sec potential. Geez, harsh choices.
I had quite a few 5.0 LXs, and to a large degree, they are still my favorite cars. As you state, they were dirt cheap & easy to mod. Also, much like your opening story, they cost less and were alot faster than the Camaro RSs of the day that keep poping up as an example of a mid-engine option.
The difference between the 5.0 LX Mustangs of the 80s & early 90s and the 5.3 engine you are advocating is that the 5.0 engine was Mustangs top engine, and for most of it's life the only other engine available in the Mustang was a FOUR CYLINDER!! (starting in 1986)
So like the current 4th gen, you had 2 engine choices in the Mustang back then. Unlike the Mustang however, F-body's base engine has some *****.
Again, it seems you are going in 2 different directions here. You are looking for "cheap V8 performance", then you say want a weaker engine then what's offered today.
The difference between the 5.0 LX Mustangs of the 80s & early 90s and the 5.3 engine you are advocating is that the 5.0 engine was Mustangs top engine, and for most of it's life the only other engine available in the Mustang was a FOUR CYLINDER!! (starting in 1986)
So like the current 4th gen, you had 2 engine choices in the Mustang back then. Unlike the Mustang however, F-body's base engine has some *****.
Again, it seems you are going in 2 different directions here. You are looking for "cheap V8 performance", then you say want a weaker engine then what's offered today.
Plus you forget, the Mustang nearly died in the late 80s due to flagging sales. I wouldn't point to that as a reason to have only 2 engine choices.
The whole issue can be addressed with one simple move: a base F-body with the top engine & suspension, much like the Mustang 5.0s you mentioned. Doing so answers these issues:
1. Certification of every engine combo is expensive. A car expected to run less than 100,000 units per year simply isn't going to have a mid engine. You can count the cars that do (excluding "specials") on one hand.
1. Certification of every engine combo is expensive. A car expected to run less than 100,000 units per year simply isn't going to have a mid engine. You can count the cars that do (excluding "specials") on one hand.
2. There is no cost advantage in producing a mid-level V8. It costs the same to make both engines, simply offer the one V8 and save on the certification.
Why do we keep talking only engines as the cost differential?
3. It costs nothing to make a base level car with the performance engine & suspension. The base car is in production, the performance drivetrain is in production, the certification is paid for. It's simply a marketing decision made by people who are collecting paychecks anyway.
All the opening statements and mythbusters are actual facts and the points that have been made against a mid V8 at GM. It's pretty formable, and even convinced me (a former strong mid V8 proponent!!) including the part about noone buying a Mustang GT because it's weaker than an LS1 F-body. 
A better, and more realistic case IMHO is an Mustang 5.0 LX type of "mid-level" car. Again, the only issue that needs to be conqured is the fact that most all of you Camaro buyers ordered your car loaded to the teeth, while base level $23K Z28s gathered dust on lots.
And I can promise you that no one less than Redplanet himself will point out that the Z28 was a sleeper because it looked exactly like a base Camaro, easily identified at a distance only by the small red Chevy bowtie under the right side taillight.
He would also point out the RS was the flashy one short of the SS. [/B]
A better, and more realistic case IMHO is an Mustang 5.0 LX type of "mid-level" car. Again, the only issue that needs to be conqured is the fact that most all of you Camaro buyers ordered your car loaded to the teeth, while base level $23K Z28s gathered dust on lots.
And I can promise you that no one less than Redplanet himself will point out that the Z28 was a sleeper because it looked exactly like a base Camaro, easily identified at a distance only by the small red Chevy bowtie under the right side taillight.
He would also point out the RS was the flashy one short of the SS. [/B]
Let's first of all agree the Mustang won sales for more reasons than engines or options. It was viewed as a more practical everyday car than the Fbod. So we can't say that having a mid V8 in the 4th gen would have saved it. The whole car was the problem not simply engine variety or options or cost.
Now assuming the 5th gen is designed as well as the new Stang, we can now argue why a mid level V8 helps things out.
It's less confusing if one breaks the problem down into small parts.
1) People want a performance V8 Camaro
2) They want all the nice interior options plus 17" wheels
3) They want it for $25K or less.
How do you get all this done in a 4 dimensional universe?
You carry over all the base V6 hardware and slap in a V8 that won't break anything or put the car outside it's safe performance envelope. A SC V6 would accomplish this too. But it's more expensive, offers less performance and it misses number 1 requirement: People want a V8 in their Camaro
In 2007, you'll never get a decently optioned 6.0 Camaro under $25K, not because of the cost of the engine, but the additional cost of the premium hardware you gotta surround a 6.0 with. And there'll be the Mustang GT, nicely equiped for $25K and change. And with this Mustang ST, possibly a 4.6 stang for around $20K.
Bottom line is. There's a buttload o money to be made with a CHEAP, yet well appointed muscle car. The V6 Camaro is not going to make Chevy much money. And the Z/28 with limited volume at $30K+ won't bring in huge volume dollars either. The meat of the market is right where a mid V8 model would hit big, just like the Mustang GT.
No skin offa my teeth whether Chevy does it or not. I'd buy the Z/28 anyway. Plus adding the mid V8 car does allow Chevy to scale the Z/28 price up(bad for Z/28 fans good for Chevy's bottom line).
Last edited by hp_nut; Feb 1, 2004 at 01:46 AM.
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It’s all about packaging. In My eyes that’s what sells cars. The last Mustang brought lots of different options and packages to the table. The ’05 and on Mustang looks like its also going to have many trim levels, packages and options. The Camaro cant come to the game short handed. If the Mustang is offering 4 to 5 different packages in 2007 (Base, ST, GT, Cobra, so on), and the Camaro only has 2 or 3 (Base, SS, and maybe a top level Z28), who do you think is going to sell more. The math says you’re more likely as a buyer to find what you want over at the Ford Dealership. If the sales of the 3rd gen don’t prove this too, I don’t know what will. The Camaro is going to need more trim levels, options and differentiation in the coming year to be able to compete. This means you need a 3rd motor and mid range car. If Chevy brings the Camro to the showroom floor with one arm tied behind its back compared to its biggest competition over at Ford, then why even bother?
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From: Chicagoland IL
Originally posted by hp_nut
I doubt that the 200hp? V6 would outrun the 305 TPI 5spd. But go ahead post that claim on thirdgen.org.
I doubt that the 200hp? V6 would outrun the 305 TPI 5spd. But go ahead post that claim on thirdgen.org.
You carry over all the base V6 hardware and slap in a V8 that won't break anything or put the car outside it's safe performance envelope. A SC V6 would accomplish this too. But it's more expensive, offers less performance and it misses number 1 requirement: People want a V8 in their Camaro
CONGRATULATIONS! This paragraph makes the case for me.
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Originally posted by DarthIROC
The only problem I have with that line-up is theres no close to stripper car with the highest output engine avaliable. So you can get a cheap but relaly fast car.
The only problem I have with that line-up is theres no close to stripper car with the highest output engine avaliable. So you can get a cheap but relaly fast car.
The guy who is willing to pay more gets the faster car.
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From: Waterford Michigan
I dont see why its so hard
250 Horsepower NA V6 base
300 Horsepower NA V8 mid
375-400 Horsepower NA V8 halo
Thats about the mustang lineup. With the new chassis, and new interior I think the camaro can steal the mustangs sales. And being 19 years old and knowing that kids do want the v8. Not all kids are import tuners, gm needs to get that into their head. Not all kids want a fart can and a wing. I want an affordable base v8 for under 23 grand. I cant afford the halo car, but I can mod my v8 to rip the **** out of civics and their other uncle bens eating bretheran. Hell, in school all the kids are like wow, cool camaro does it have a v8? They dont give a **** if its an SS Z/28 ZL1 or anything as long as it has 8 cylinders. Even the kids of today have the nostalgic feeling of the v8 rumble. Dont tell me they dont, cuz I'm one of them. A FI v6 would not suit the bill. Yeah grand nationals are fast and they're a v6, but when it comes down to it, there still a v6. Yeah supras can run 10's on a I6, but when it comes down to it there still 6 cylinders. Hell even some of my buddys who have ricers (GSX eclipses and AWD talons) want a v8 muscle car, but they couldnt afford to pay more than 15 grand. Hell thats why the kids are driving civics, Its not cause they are fast, its cause they are cheap. Cost effective v8 will win everytime.
250 Horsepower NA V6 base
300 Horsepower NA V8 mid
375-400 Horsepower NA V8 halo
Thats about the mustang lineup. With the new chassis, and new interior I think the camaro can steal the mustangs sales. And being 19 years old and knowing that kids do want the v8. Not all kids are import tuners, gm needs to get that into their head. Not all kids want a fart can and a wing. I want an affordable base v8 for under 23 grand. I cant afford the halo car, but I can mod my v8 to rip the **** out of civics and their other uncle bens eating bretheran. Hell, in school all the kids are like wow, cool camaro does it have a v8? They dont give a **** if its an SS Z/28 ZL1 or anything as long as it has 8 cylinders. Even the kids of today have the nostalgic feeling of the v8 rumble. Dont tell me they dont, cuz I'm one of them. A FI v6 would not suit the bill. Yeah grand nationals are fast and they're a v6, but when it comes down to it, there still a v6. Yeah supras can run 10's on a I6, but when it comes down to it there still 6 cylinders. Hell even some of my buddys who have ricers (GSX eclipses and AWD talons) want a v8 muscle car, but they couldnt afford to pay more than 15 grand. Hell thats why the kids are driving civics, Its not cause they are fast, its cause they are cheap. Cost effective v8 will win everytime.
