flowmotion

One theory about the Audi issue was that it had to do with pedal placement and secondary drivers that were more familiar with the traditional domestic big-brake-pedal setup.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, I'm just speculating on a non-mechanical reason these reports might be limited to one manufacturer.

As far as the press goes, the Audi thing made them look a little foolish, so they might be somewhat gun-shy about reports of unintended acceleration. Still you might consider forwarding these NHTSA reports to 60 Minutes or someone.

Robert_Nashville

Actually, the NHTSA has a very specific approach they follow and, although I may be mistake, they have already looked at Toyota/Lexus’ unintentional acceleration problem and found insufficient evidence (at least so far) to support further action or a recall. However, that doesn’t mean the issue is closed forever or that there won’t be further action down the road.

Considering the size of the agency (and that many of these people in that agency hate cars in general no matter who makes them), I find it unlikely that anybody, even a Toyota, has the power to keep a significant problem under the radar for very long.

Below is an article that details steps the NHTSA goes through that may be helpful.

Link: http://www.americascarshow.com/tc/?a...comes_a_Recall

ProudPony

It's been REOPENED!!! Halelujah!!!

LEXUS SAFETY PROBE WIDENS: 40 report unintended acceleration
"Federal regulators have stepped up an investigation into 98,454 Lexus ES 350 sedans after amassing 40 reports of unintended acceleration, including eight crashes and 12 injuries, along with cases in which drivers said their cars stopped only after an accident."

"Toyota Motor Co. told safety officials that the problem appeared to be caused by loose floor mats and contends that it dealt with the flaw through a mailing to customers earlier this year. But the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration decided to continue its investigation last week to verify whether Toyota's efforts were sufficient."

"But in the Lexus investigation, NHTSA verified several of the complaints. One driver told the agency the vehicle had hit speeds of 100 m.p.h. over a 6-mile stretch of freeway due to the problem. A Michigan woman said the problem caused her to lose control of her Lexus, triggering a rollover crash on I-75 that totaled her car. "

How long would it take to cover 6 miles at 100 miles/hour? 3.6 minutes?
Long enough to figure out if your foot was on the brake pedal or the gas pedal?!?!
I'd feel fairly confident ruling out the "wrong pedal panic" theory on that one.
I'd also think that was long enough to look down and see if there was a floormat wadded-up under the gas pedal too.

The only thing that gets me now is they are concentrating on the floormat. Supposedly the "special" floormat that was optional on some Lexus' is getting bundled under tha accelerator.
Maybe so... but that would not explain why the accelerator goes to WOT right after shifting into drive and BEFORE you have your foot on the gas - in fact several have said their foot was still on the brake from stopping for the shift. And none of the Toyotas (Camry, Solara, etc have the special floormat the Lexus has... so... ?!?!

To me, the common thread in all teh incidents is that the car takes off on it's own accord without driver input. I don't know enough about their sensors and programming to guess if there's a logic fault or circuit fault that could be causing this in unusual circumstances, but there's something to it that was not there back when the throttle was cable-controlled - THAT is for certain.

I'm not walking away from this one just yet.

Robert_Nashville

No one suggested anyone walk away.

If it is a legitimate mechanical/design problem then it should be duplicateable in a controlled environment...we'll see if that happens or not.

P.S.
Yes...at 100MPH over the course of six miles, there is time to figure out what pedal you are pushing and/or whether there is a floor mat bunched up under the accelerator...of course, there was also time for the woman to use a safety defice she is apparently was unfamilar with called an IGINITION SWITCH!

graham

"woman to use a safety defice she is apparently was unfamilar with called an IGINITION SWITCH!"

In the real world we have to figure in the panic variable.

We should expect car makers to save us from panic situations in new cars.

Do you feel safe cruising through downtown knowing there are 40 reports of a lower volume Lexus having accelerator problems with no recall? That's pretty good odds that one your around could injure you.

With 40 official reports of one problem, common sense says there could be more than just 40 incidents of this one problem.

Robert_Nashville

Yes, I’m sure she did panic but that doesn’t mean she should have - people should be able to handle an emergency situation without panicking. Unexpected/emergency situations can happen anywhere at anytime for all sorts of reasons (even reasons that have nothing to do with a Toyota/Lexus problem)!

While I’m sure the status quo of giving a DL to just about anyone who hasn’t assumed room temperature yet won’t change in my lifetime, I will never think it unreasonable to expect that someone exercising the privilege of driving a vehicle should also take the responsibility to learn how to handle the vehicle in emergency situations.

In this case, she had minutes; not seconds to react; you don't have to be a Mensa candidate to be able to figure out that turning the car off might help!

At any rate, the evidence will either support the claims or it won’t…we’ll see what happens.

ProudPony

You just revealed to me that you did not even read the article I linked...
8th paragraph down...

"As an option, the ES 350 offers an engine start-stop button instead of a traditional key. Some drivers tried to shut off the engine by pressing the button as the car accelerated, but without success. Toyota said that once the engine is running, owners must hold the button down for at least 3 seconds to shut it off in an emergency."

How nice of Toyota to tell everyone that they need to hold it down for 3 seconds in an emergency. I'll be counting one-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, three-one-thousand while I am out of control going through a parking lot.

Look, the irony here is that I am usually the one preaching about idiot buyers and foolish people doing foolish things. I am the one who is always preaching common sense and brains over legislation and legalities, but EVEN I AM CONVINCED there is something going on with this ETC system and I can't fault ANY driver for ANYTHING when a car takes off on it's own.
(Well, I could fault them with being dumb enough to buy a Toyota in the first place, but this is not the place or time for silliness. )

So why are you so staunchly defending Toyota and trying to find any avenue possible to hang this defect on? What about "fair and level"?
Maybe you will get more excited over this...
GM minivans probed
"General Motors Corp. minivans are being investigated by U.S. safety regulators because of reports that power sliding doors on 2005 and 2006 models opened while the vehicles were moving.

The inquiry covers as many as 175,000 Buick Terraza, Chevrolet Uplander, Pontiac Montana SV6 and Saturn Relay minivans, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Monday on its Web site. The agency said it received nine complaints about doors that opened at various speeds.

NHTSA began a preliminary investigation, the first step in its review process. GM sold 234,726 of the minivans in the U.S. during the two years, about 3% of its sales, according to figures from Woodcliff Lake, N.J.-based Autodata Corp.

"We are not aware of any instances where the door opened on the open road," GM spokesman Alan Adler said in an interview. There have been no reports of injuries or crashes related to the doors, and the company is cooperating with the investigation, he said."

So here we have a total of 9 complaints with no injuries, no accidents, and no deaths, yet NHTSA can find time to investigate THIS, but they did not have the resources to investigate Toyota's ETC problem with deaths, injuries, accidents, and over 1000 reports filed.

MmmmHmmm. OK. Gotcha. All clear now.

Robert_Nashville

How does the fact that the ignition switch works differently negate the basic argument that she could have turned off the engine but did not???

If you are saying she did try, in the proscribed way, to turn off the engine and it would not shut-off that's a whole other (and new) issue.

Consumers have to take (or at least should take) some responsibility for knowing how their vehicle operates...especially with regards to new technology like keyless ignition systems...I have “intelligent cruise control” in my QX which senses if my vehicle is getting too close to a vehicle ahead – it will automatically slow me down to keep a safe distance. However, that does not mean that I can depend on the vehicle to never rear-end someone or give me license to blame Nissan if I do rear-end someone!

I know you aren't happy with how NHTSA has handled this Toyota/Lexus issue but the fact the NHTSA hasn’t done what you feel they should do is not, by itself, evidence of a conspiracy or unfair treatment of one manufacturer compared to another – there are far too many details not addressed to reach broad conclusions based on limited observations.

As to the issue cited above (with GM's minivans) my opinion/position is the same as it is with Toyota which is that NHTSA should investigate and if there is a design flaw or mechenical defect which can be proven through testing under controlled conditions then GM shoudl fix it; until then, I'm not going to give much weight to unfounded consumer claims.

As I said pages ago, I've never known the NHTSA to be shy about ordering recalls no matter what automaker was involved; if ther is a provable problem with these cars, I've no doubt that NHTSA will ordre a recall or that Toyota will do so on their own to make such an order unnecessary.

OutsiderIROC-Z

I thought Lexus was supposed to be so good...

Z28Wilson

When your car is basically accelerating out of control, do you want to shut off the motor?

Power steering? Gone.
Brakes? Negatory Houston.

That leaves you with the option of pushing in the clutch (manual) OR throwing the car in neutral (auto). Neither option would be appealing either since the uncontrollable engine speed would theoretically grenade the motor -- at which point Toyota would probably blame YOU for hot-rodding the car or something. (Remember, much like their engine sludge, it was the consumer's fault -- no wait, the dealer's fault -- no wait, the mechanic's fault.....).

Robert_Nashville

No question there is a downside to turning off the engine but that downside is better than wrecking the vehicle as the woman eventually ended up doing - even with limited brakes/steering at least there is a chance to bring the vehicle under control.

CaminoLS6

None of that answers my questions.

Robert_Nashville

What question wasn't answered?

You asked if anyone had looked at the problem - it was already posted earlier in the thread that the NHTSA has looked at the problem and apparently, didn't feel, at the time, that more investigation was warranted; now, apparently, they are looking at it again.

NHTSA has specific procedures that are followed that can lead to a recall...if you've got a problem with what they've done or not done, contact them!

WERM

We'll, I think if you have to read a manual to figure out how to turn off a car there are fundamental design problems. If I go rent a car and it starts freaking out, I'd sure as hell like to know how to turn it off.

90% of the general population would have probably NOT guessed that holding the button in for 3 seconds would turn the engine off while the car is in motion.

I dunno. I never understood the appeal of pushbutton start anyway.

CaminoLS6

No, I asked if anyone has actually looked at the CARS involved, not the problem alleged. All that the link described was information shuffling not a physical investigation of the cars themselves. If you re-read my ealier post asking the questions, you'll see that I have yet to take a position on the issue of a recall.