Silly....SCHMILLY.

Chevy needs to work this out. They dug this hole. They need to undig it.

The same people who decided to flip-flop the line-up with complete abandon...need to take a hard look at how to diffuse this issue. Maybe, they don't care enough to resolve it.....Okay..I'd like to hear someone have the ***** to actually say that.

I don't know what the big deal is.....it's not like landing a man on the moon.

It just needs to be resolved....that's all.

I mean, you don't actually think that this is all just going to go away do you? If it's not resolved......the only way it's going away, is when people who are dying to buy a Camaro.......buy something else.

 

A lot of people do not feel they dug a hole, though...

 

Fair.

But what do you do with all the people who feel that they did dig a hole and are still digging?

Do you abandon them?

Do you ridicule them?

Do you tell them, "we don't need your business"?


Like I said....it needs to be resolved.

 

All these could be said if you switch things to your way, too... so it's 6 in one hand, a half dozen in the other, really.

I still sort of like my AWD idea for the SS (or Z28... whichever) as a way to differentiate one from another...

 

I don't see the issue of trim level hierarchy deterring someone from buying an otherwise worthy automobile. Currently, it seems Chevy is content to have "SS" be the top model designation for everything outside of Corvette.

 

I'm in Charlie's camp on this one. The confusion and bickering can only be quelled one way, and only then can all this wasted typing and verbage be redirected to good deeds.

GM - call the play, and then it's done. Fini, caput, terminado.

I liken this again to Ford's call on killing the 5.0 in '94. Some people threatened toleave Ford for good. Some did. Some didn't. Now the Mach 1, Cobra, GT, and Bullitt with their 4.6's are just about as popular as the ol' 5.0 at the strip and certainly on the streets. Life was tough for a while and we took some licks, but it's behind now and all is well.

Also, I liken this to the Mach 1 vs. GT thing in the Mustang camp. Ironically, Mustang guys don't quabble about which is the best - not at all. Truth is, with the exception of 2 model years (1969 and 2003) the two never really shared the showroom. The Mach 1 was a definitive model unto itself (with an actual VIN number code 05 - similar to the Z/28 of yore) and the GT was an option package that could be put on any hardtop, ragtop, or fastback. The Mach 1 was only available on fastbacks, and mandated performance V8's, Competition suspension, different shocks and springs, and offered a Deluxe interior with full guages and instrumentation. There was no doubt this car was purely bent towards performance, where the GT could be optioned sweet and gentle to provide looks and better handling on a base car with any base V8.

I'm not arguing the point of which deserves top honors. It should be obvious to those with respect for the car's past. And like 99SilverSS said - it's GM's badge, they can do with it what they want. But unlike 99SilverSS, I'll say this much though... GM can certainly "dictate" what they want to do with SS, Z28, RS, and even BS if they want to, but if they try to ram something down the buyers' throat that the buyer doesn't like - they will get to enjoy the hiatus for an extended period of time and can save their developmental dollars for another SUV or something.

The lesson last week was "Listen to the customer"... which automakers were in the class?

 

The idea here and point of contention is in the past. GM doesn't make the F-body anymore and may not again. So this whole idea that somehow GM screwed up the models is silly because they didn't. Whats even more silly is the idea that some feel that not only did GM screw up the model's but that in turn killed the car. And the only basis for this agrument is that in the past GM did things differently. So what...

What sold in the 60's and 70's doesn't always sell today. GM used to redesign cars every year. Each GM division used to have their own engines. GM used to have rules on car size and weight vs engine size..... catch my drift, things change!

The Z/28 began life a little known option in 1967 used to get the Trans Am Association's license to compete. This allowed Chevrolet to play against the Ford's, Mercury's, and AMC's on the track. The restriction was 5Liter displacement so GM built a 302 as did Ford with the B0SS 302 along with the other participants. So in 67 the Z/28 didn't even have a badge to signify itself, not that stripes wouldn't give it away.

However the car cought on and began to sell. So it turned from a performace option Z/28 to a Merchandizing option Z28. By then Chevy was out of Trans Am racing and thus the restriction on suspension and engine size. To save money and to get the more powerful 350 c.i. motor, GM now free to drop the engine in, did so. Thus saving money for having a different engine.

So if this rubs some people the wrong way that GM didn't have the Z28 with a 302 c.i. high revving V8 as opposed to the L98, LT1, or LS1 well thats too bad. Its costs too much to get EPA certification. Not to mention the added benefit of the larger displacemnt engine. GM gave the people what they wanted. Not to mention had the Trans Am series not had a engine size restriction or selling a certain amount of factory like compnents on the cars, the Z/28 wouldn't have been limited to 302 ci.

The Z/28 was built to be a Trans Am competitor and not to be better than the SS/RS models but had to be different to compete. But GM hasn't raced for 30 years and yet the car model still lived. It has no place in the lineup because its reason for being is gone. The SS is just fine for V8 Camaro's and IF GM brings the Camaro back it may not have a Z28 option.

 

More powerful 350 c.i. motor? Huh???

Cubic inches does not horsepower make!

The 302 c.i. Z/28 motors would toast the 350's of their day, and might even take down a few 396 big blocks in the process.

And btw... Chevrolet was fully content in going with a high horsepower version of the 283 for TransAM until Vince Piggins suggested to Pete Estes that engineers could destroke a 327 down to 302.5 c.i. with a 283 crank.

In fact most 1st gen loyalists will argue that the large journal 327's (in particular the L30 275HP version) was a better performance engine than the 350 at the time.

Furthermore, because the 302 c.i. V8 had already been developed, GM didn't save money by dropping the "different" engine; because in fact for the most part all the sbc's had the same block castings (not including the 283 and 307). If they saved any money, it was by going with a weaker motor that was basically a hopped up passenger car block.

And while you're trashing history around... the reason most Z/28 loyalists want the Z/28 to remain over the SS, is not because they envy or hate the SS. It's because the Z/28 has a history unique to Camaro; whereas the History of the SS goes back to a trim package on a six-cylinder 1961 Impala and is also going to be used by GM on everything from 4-cylinder fwd econo-boxes (Cobalt SS), to sluggish pig awd pickup trucks (Silverado SS) over the next few years.

Certainly if the Camaro is reborn it deserves a much better image than the modern-day "SS" has to offer.

 

Huh? Sorry bud...you went alittle over my head here.

Really, all arguments here are irrelavent.

Why?

Because we have a passion for this model burning in our souls. If you don't understand it....I cannot even begin to explain it to you.

Just hearing the name gives me goosebumps.

ZEEEEEEEEETWENTYEIGHT !!

See....I just had to run out for a shot of Benadryl, so the swelling would go down.

Why fight it?

If I were a GM product planner, I wouldn't want to ignore this passion....and I certainly wouldn't want it to simply go away.

 

jg.....I think that you understand "THE PASSION".

 

So far so good.

Now you have a problem.

Chevy didn't drop in a 350 for any cost savings or availability issues...
In 1970 the Trans-Am rules were changed allowing carmakers to enter up to a 5.7 liter engine in the F/S F/A classes. THAT is why the 350 and 351 cars came onto the racing scene, and why the exotic 302 programs (both Ford and GM's) got ditched.

Regardless, I still claim that the badge deserves respect for it's historical significance if nothing else.
If GM won't respect it's glorious past, how can they expect me to?

 

I have a fair collection myself, but on later cars - lot's of mid 80's trucks, and some 3rd & 4th gen F's.

Whenever the wifey & go antiquing, I always look for car brochures, but have never had any luck.


So, where do ya go ?

Personally, I'd love to have a '73 & '77 Firebird brochure.

'73 = the best looking S.D. made - ' 77 = Smokey & the Bandit !

(Which is why I got into F's in the first place !! )


Thanks !

Britt

 

I purchased an original, mint condition 1962 Corvette brochure for my father-in-law off eBay for Father's Day.

Seller ID is jimminyxmas ...

 

Look folks I'll end this from my standpoint with this. The Z28 is a great car in 2002 as it was in 1967. I've been lucky to own 2 4th gen Z's over the years and I still love the name and its history.

However the Z/28 from 1967-72 has not been seperate from the V8 Camaro or SS even since. To me its still a Camaro and its still important. Yes it has a glorious past and some great history but if you here are so strong in the beliefs that GM has dropped the ball on this model then thats ok. I don't feel that way. To me a LS1-LT1 Z28 or even a 80's IROC-Z are worthy of the Z heritage. I get the feeling some of you feel the Z28 heritage should only be bestowed opn a very singular special model, namly a street racer bare bones Camaro with any number of engine/trans combo's. Like the 1st gen models. And to that It seems like many of you think the later Z28's of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Gen Camaro's is somehow less worthy of the name. And your reasons for this to me stem from the Z28 loosing its own engine, suspension, and stripes from other V8 Camaros. Thats fine if thats the way you feel, but I don't agree.

I've always seen the SS as the top model when it was around. And when it wasn't the Z28 filled in. The SS is the most expensive with the most options and best trim. Its always been that way as long as the two were around. It wasn't the Z28's game to be the top Camaro it was just a car to compete with the other makes in Trans Am. Just like the Z06 and ZL1 or L88 cars were to be special models for certain types of racing applications, for Vettes and Camaro.

For me its been a tribute to the Z28 by keeping it as long as Chevy did. When in reality the cars reason for being was over a long long time ago.

Now lets talk future and cut the crap. If you think GM will bring back a Z/28 like the first gen with a different engine and options unique to the car, well I guess ya don't know GM to well. And to thing GM is basing all this SS pitch to make that Chevy's performance model designation, only to bring out a better Z/28.... hmm I don't see that either. Unless Chevy desides to go racing with the car again and needs to sell a certain number of street cars to qualify.

JG95Z28, I'm not going to debate racing, I assume you mean drag. The 302 Z/28 was a stout competitor but there are those who could beat it with 350's. And not to mention the SS could be had with a 396, and I doubt many near stock Z/28's will beat that car. Again the top Camaro was and is an SS. Your correct C.I. don't mean power but it can help a lot in the modding world.

Z284ever, I see your point but I think we differ in our veiw. I see the 1st Gen Z/28's as special and made to race. But that was then and more of Camaro's history has has the Z28 as just a V8 Camaro than not so to me that became the cars heritage, not its true conception but heritage still!

 

Believe me...I fully understand GM's marketing strategy here. The names are their's to do as they please. But Camaro won't be built, sold, and marketed in a purely "Chevy Think" microcosm. There will be plenty of potent competitors with and without heritage for it to do battle with. Some of these competitors will inspire as much passion for their buyers as Z/28 does for me.

Let's hope GM doesn't **** away any vestigial equity that Z/28 still has, simply in order to further their SS strategy.

For Chevy, "SS" has come and gone....and represented different things at different times. Who knows....things could change again. In five years we may find ourselves in a world where people don't want to buy $35-$40,000 luxury pony cars and $40,000++++++ SS trucks.


If I were GM, I would protect the Z/28's image....and not even for me, or the many, many enthusiasts who love it. No sir. I would protect it because in the last three and a half decades everytime Camaro's fortunes or marketing schemes went south......they always had the Z/28 brand equity to come back to.

It would be a shame if they "used it all up" before the next time that they really, really, really needed it.

And if we've learned anything from the past, there WILL be a next time.......I garauntee it...................