Ladies and Gentlemen.........
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,579
From: The Land of Pleasant Living
Branden makes such a great point here!!......."GM's problem in all honesty is the mindset of the American consumer. The reason American cars do not sell well overseas is because the citizens of other countries are far more nationalistic. Your average Japanese person would never buy an American car because he understands the importance of that industry to Japan and takes pride in it. Same with Germans, Swedes, Koreans, etc. The average American consumer takes pride and confidence in *NOT* buying American cars. Sure American cars were substandard for a period that ended 10-15 years ago. That was largely the result of GM having to somehow meet government mandated innovation standards (CAFE, Emissions, Safety), while also providing an increasingly higher uncompetitive standard of living for employees. Quality and non mandated design/innovation suffered because GM is a business and they had to make money. Imports on the other hand had much cheaper labor, and were able to meet government mandates while still innovating"...!! I wholeheartedly agree! To that, I have to ask, "what happened to the American pride that once existed in Americans? And why do so few people here, understand the importance of this industry, to the health of our country! Or why they are so quick to forgive the quality issues of the transplants? Anyone know?
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,449
From: Bentonville, AR
Dealers are still a HUGE problem for the domestics from what I can tell. I can't vouch for the import companies, since I have never owned an import that needed service.
One of the biggest complaints many have of their domestic car was the overall bad taste left in their mouth when they needed service.
From my personal experience I have had a Ford dealer that wouldn't honor recalls (1995 Mustang Head Gasket recall). GM dealers that have drove my car quite hard when they shouldn't have been driving my car off the lot (the guy was spinning the tires on the Z28 off the lot during a "road test" when it was in for an oil change. Another time the GTO had 18 more miles from when I dropped it off and the average MPG was 9.xx). A GM dealer play dumb when he pretended that he couldn't hear my brakes squealing (it was VERY noticable) during a long ride along because he didn't want to fix the fact that they used O'Reilly pads instead of GM. The Camaro and GTO were only completely fixed when they had an issue because I went back MULTIPLE times until they finally got it right. I shouldn't have had to do this! Also, it isn't just one or two dealerships, I took my car multiple places once I would get fed up with the current dealer's BS.
Banned
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,938
Bob, you are correct that the economy would recover, and those worker's jobs would eventially be replaced.... someday.
But it would likely be of little comfort to you if you were to be suddenly unemployed, lose your home because you are no longer making money, have to get a job at a retail store at a fraction of what you are likely making now, not to mention the strain on your family. Depending on the state you live in, you might not even get benefits because your state financed would be nonexistant because of a lack of taxes from the auto industry as well as it's workers.
Today, there are towns in my home state of Pennsylvania that have never recovered from the days when steel mills shut down and are borderline ghost towns populated only by old people who were unable to move.
Certain entities are in fact too big to fail, and represent a item of national security if they do. In war time, it's auto factories that are converted to produce war machinary. Take away that capacity, and we'll have to outsource our war machinary to China.
If Ford or Chrysler was failing, I would simply state the reasons why it failed, bashed them for being so foolish (they also jumped onto the large truck & suv bandwagon with nearly the same results as GM), and they would ride off without me advocating for their rescue. GM is different.
As I said, even if it means decimating GM's upper management as a condition, GM needs to get help.
The first help that GM (in fact ALL) industry needs is to get loans to buyers. That alone would eradicate half the problem if not more. Simply giving money to GM I agree would do zilch.
The second help is the already approved funds for converting to small cars. Ford can use it to offset the cost of transforming it's truck plants to make Euro version Fords that's on the way. Chrysler can use it to create small cars which they are lacking (the smallest Chrysler is currently a "truck"... the Caliber).
Ironically, GM has a major problem when it comes to these funds. They are being given only to companies that have a reasonable chance to recover (which GM currently doesn't have), and second, GM doesn't have any new small cars coming out save the Cobalt replacing Cruize. GM could use the money to convert a factory to manufacture the Beat, but we already know what the issue is with that.
Finally, any additional money GM gets should be used EXCLUSIVELY for reorganization. Not nickel and dime stuff, but to shut down divisions and buy out workers.
I am in no way just simply advocating handing over to GM's management billions of dollars in cash, loans or not. I am advocating an "All Hands On Deck" effort to correct and save the General Motors Corperation. We need to do whatever needs to be done, investigate what happened and what went wrong, and if necessary or it proves correct to do so, remove whoever should be removed.
There's alot riding on GM surviving.
But it would likely be of little comfort to you if you were to be suddenly unemployed, lose your home because you are no longer making money, have to get a job at a retail store at a fraction of what you are likely making now, not to mention the strain on your family. Depending on the state you live in, you might not even get benefits because your state financed would be nonexistant because of a lack of taxes from the auto industry as well as it's workers.
Today, there are towns in my home state of Pennsylvania that have never recovered from the days when steel mills shut down and are borderline ghost towns populated only by old people who were unable to move.
Certain entities are in fact too big to fail, and represent a item of national security if they do. In war time, it's auto factories that are converted to produce war machinary. Take away that capacity, and we'll have to outsource our war machinary to China.
If Ford or Chrysler was failing, I would simply state the reasons why it failed, bashed them for being so foolish (they also jumped onto the large truck & suv bandwagon with nearly the same results as GM), and they would ride off without me advocating for their rescue. GM is different.
As I said, even if it means decimating GM's upper management as a condition, GM needs to get help.
The first help that GM (in fact ALL) industry needs is to get loans to buyers. That alone would eradicate half the problem if not more. Simply giving money to GM I agree would do zilch.
The second help is the already approved funds for converting to small cars. Ford can use it to offset the cost of transforming it's truck plants to make Euro version Fords that's on the way. Chrysler can use it to create small cars which they are lacking (the smallest Chrysler is currently a "truck"... the Caliber).
Ironically, GM has a major problem when it comes to these funds. They are being given only to companies that have a reasonable chance to recover (which GM currently doesn't have), and second, GM doesn't have any new small cars coming out save the Cobalt replacing Cruize. GM could use the money to convert a factory to manufacture the Beat, but we already know what the issue is with that.
Finally, any additional money GM gets should be used EXCLUSIVELY for reorganization. Not nickel and dime stuff, but to shut down divisions and buy out workers.
I am in no way just simply advocating handing over to GM's management billions of dollars in cash, loans or not. I am advocating an "All Hands On Deck" effort to correct and save the General Motors Corperation. We need to do whatever needs to be done, investigate what happened and what went wrong, and if necessary or it proves correct to do so, remove whoever should be removed.
There's alot riding on GM surviving.
Like the towns you mention in PA; there have always been communities that have been devastated by economic upheavals - our country is repleat with the skeletons of towns that were once thriving, vibrant communities but are now nothing more than a few crumbling foundations...it's always very sad but to some extent; part of the natural order of things.
Other than the fact that I simply think a Federal bailout of GM (or anybody else) is just plain wrong, my main fear in all of this is that none of the things you've suggested need to be done will be done...I suspect that any strings attached will be cursory at best.
We've already seen AIG thumb their noses at the taxpayers by re-negotiating their payback period after just a couple of months (not to mention their "retreats" at taxpayer expense) as have banks who, rather than lending money have instead taken the money from one government window and gone to the next government window and bought Treasury bonds or simply paid bills but haven't loaned out much of anything.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't trust the government to do what is necessary to ensure the funds are used wisely nor do I trust GM to use them wisely even if the government was looking (which I don't think they will be).
Too big to fail...an issue of national security? Maybe. But it might be equally true that the government is too broke to help and too weak to make GM do what it should do to get the money.
Oh...and one reason why I don't trust either the government or GM in this...one of the champions of rescuing GM is Senator John Dingle (D) from Michigan. Not surprising of course seeing as how he represents Michigan. What troubles me, however, is that his most recent wife, Debbie Dingle just happens to be vice chair of the General Motors Foundation...can anybody look at that picture and not understand why I think a bailout of GM would be a massive fraud perpetrated on the American taxpayer?
Registered User
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 1,547
From: Panhandle of West Virginia
Here is what I would do...if I were making a game plan.
If I were the government I would rather invest in the loaning money busines than the auto business.
I would take Cerbus's 51% of GMAC off their hands. They are using it to manipulate GM to the point that is simply unacceptable..and a threat to national well being. The government should give Cerbus whatever they paid GM and call it a day. Then the government should sell 2% of GMAC back to GM, and provide GMAC with access to CHEAP cash to loan that they are encourged to be aggressive loaning. Then GM can use cheap, and easy to qualify for fiancing as a way to get sales up. As GM starts to recover, there would then be a schedule on which they would have to slowely repurchase GMAC back from the government and operate it. In this scenerio, both GM and consumers are helped.
I know it will never happen...but just an idea.
If I were the government I would rather invest in the loaning money busines than the auto business.
I would take Cerbus's 51% of GMAC off their hands. They are using it to manipulate GM to the point that is simply unacceptable..and a threat to national well being. The government should give Cerbus whatever they paid GM and call it a day. Then the government should sell 2% of GMAC back to GM, and provide GMAC with access to CHEAP cash to loan that they are encourged to be aggressive loaning. Then GM can use cheap, and easy to qualify for fiancing as a way to get sales up. As GM starts to recover, there would then be a schedule on which they would have to slowely repurchase GMAC back from the government and operate it. In this scenerio, both GM and consumers are helped.
I know it will never happen...but just an idea.
Banned
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,604
From: Milton, FL
i'd love to see GM's plan for using this money, and/or their plan to "Recover"
their last plans have been great to watch, ignoring the car market, putting little silver "GM" badges on the cars to help tie in brands, badge engineering, importing cars at a loss, displaying and having the people vote on their favorite small vehicle only to turn around and say HEY just kidding you can't have them, engineering small vehicles to only european crash standards and ignoring the american ones so those cars will never be sold anywhere but there, freezing vehicle development except on a halo car that seems to be venturing even farther out of each for the average buyer the more they develop it, and funny accounting practices. those were all GREAT plans, i can't wait to see their recovery plan.
their last plans have been great to watch, ignoring the car market, putting little silver "GM" badges on the cars to help tie in brands, badge engineering, importing cars at a loss, displaying and having the people vote on their favorite small vehicle only to turn around and say HEY just kidding you can't have them, engineering small vehicles to only european crash standards and ignoring the american ones so those cars will never be sold anywhere but there, freezing vehicle development except on a halo car that seems to be venturing even farther out of each for the average buyer the more they develop it, and funny accounting practices. those were all GREAT plans, i can't wait to see their recovery plan.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,938
Second, as long as there is a need for the automobile, in some form, to provide for our nation's transportation; there will be companies building and selling automobiles here. The incentive for foreign (or domestic) nameplates to make them here will be the same as the incentive that exists today...it makes good business/economic sense to build cars in the U.S.; especially the models you want to sell in the U.S.
That's why, some thirty years ago, the transplants built plants here in the first place and why they've been expanding/building new plants ever since. If those foreign manufacturers decide to leave the U.S. it won't be because GM is no longer in North America.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 10,285
From: Albany, NY
America makes great cars, I agree with many of you that it is a mind set problem more than a product problem with one exception, small cars. Vehicles like the Colorado, Cobalt, and Aveo need to be best in class. I can't tell you how many 20 somethings I know that bought Japanese after having a bad experience with a Blazer or Caviler. I loved my Colorado but I know 3 people that bought Tacomas because the interior was so much nicer than the Colorado. To make it worse they all traded in American vehicles.
If the Big 3 don't give the sub $20K car buyer the best they have to offer then we are going to be bailing then out every few years, nothing will change. If they can't survive in good times how will hey survive in bad? Maybe GM should also be lobbying for something like no tax on 40MPG car or higher fuel taxes to get demand and prices for small car up.
Our auto industry needs help, but something has to change.
If the Big 3 don't give the sub $20K car buyer the best they have to offer then we are going to be bailing then out every few years, nothing will change. If they can't survive in good times how will hey survive in bad? Maybe GM should also be lobbying for something like no tax on 40MPG car or higher fuel taxes to get demand and prices for small car up.
Our auto industry needs help, but something has to change.
Last edited by Z28x; Nov 13, 2008 at 07:15 AM.
Thread Starter
ALMIGHTY MEMBER
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,298
From: Detroit, MI USA
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 859
From: AR (PA born and fled)
Yes, we know there are external circumstances at work against GM's success. However, there are also internal forces at work that have NOTHING to do with the engineering side of things. What is going to change there?
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,746
From: Hemet, CA
The stupidity and apathy of the majority of people in this country honestly pains me these days. I don’t even know how to elaborate here. As much as I love it and believe in the American way, I think our country will fail.
This is like watching a plane full of people plow into the ground in slow motion. However most of the people on the plan are reading magazines and not looking out the window. The pilots are just handing out free drinks.
This is like watching a plane full of people plow into the ground in slow motion. However most of the people on the plan are reading magazines and not looking out the window. The pilots are just handing out free drinks.
This is true of almost every facet of society, not just economics.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Here is what I would do...if I were making a game plan.
If I were the government I would rather invest in the loaning money busines than the auto business.
I would take Cerbus's 51% of GMAC off their hands. They are using it to manipulate GM to the point that is simply unacceptable..and a threat to national well being. The government should give Cerbus whatever they paid GM and call it a day. Then the government should sell 2% of GMAC back to GM, and provide GMAC with access to CHEAP cash to loan that they are encourged to be aggressive loaning. Then GM can use cheap, and easy to qualify for fiancing as a way to get sales up. As GM starts to recover, there would then be a schedule on which they would have to slowely repurchase GMAC back from the government and operate it. In this scenerio, both GM and consumers are helped.
I know it will never happen...but just an idea.
If I were the government I would rather invest in the loaning money busines than the auto business.
I would take Cerbus's 51% of GMAC off their hands. They are using it to manipulate GM to the point that is simply unacceptable..and a threat to national well being. The government should give Cerbus whatever they paid GM and call it a day. Then the government should sell 2% of GMAC back to GM, and provide GMAC with access to CHEAP cash to loan that they are encourged to be aggressive loaning. Then GM can use cheap, and easy to qualify for fiancing as a way to get sales up. As GM starts to recover, there would then be a schedule on which they would have to slowely repurchase GMAC back from the government and operate it. In this scenerio, both GM and consumers are helped.
I know it will never happen...but just an idea.
I think that's a great starting point.
Banned
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,938
I ask this once again and will expand the question to any of the bureaucratic nonsense that GM seems unable to shake.
Yes, we know there are external circumstances at work against GM's success. However, there are also internal forces at work that have NOTHING to do with the engineering side of things. What is going to change there?
Yes, we know there are external circumstances at work against GM's success. However, there are also internal forces at work that have NOTHING to do with the engineering side of things. What is going to change there?
Their "internal forces" are an absolute adherence to a failed business plan...it's been failing since the early 70s and slowly but surely allowing the water to come in that eventually sinks the Titanic.
GM's answer to this failed business model is to "give us money"...rather than fix the hole, and our wonderful politicians (who feel they owe their jobs to the UAW) are more than willing to give GM money...money they don't even have and will have to borrow from China. I can't help but wonder how those who want to wrap the flag around GM feel - knowing that the money to prop-up GM will actually come from China.
Rather than making real changes, Congress wants to arrange the deck chairs while GM wants to build more superstructure so some part of the ship stays above the waterline a little while longer (probably only long enough so the current management and BoD can find a lifeboat).
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
This all seems so circular. GM is a key part of the auto industry....take it away, and the rest collapses because of how many suppliers are reliant on GM.
Either way..I think at this point you are taking a view of the industry that is simply nonsensical. However if I worked at Nissan I would be spewing a line also along the lines of "the world is fine without GM". On the surface the idea of less hands in the pot sounds better for all the remaining survivors....that is simple business. However on a much larger level...economically, and socially...the country can not afford at this point for GM to go bankrupt.
Some people say...well what if GM does not turn around or change. There is that risk....but America has taken a far greater risk, for much less impact in the past.
Either way..I think at this point you are taking a view of the industry that is simply nonsensical. However if I worked at Nissan I would be spewing a line also along the lines of "the world is fine without GM". On the surface the idea of less hands in the pot sounds better for all the remaining survivors....that is simple business. However on a much larger level...economically, and socially...the country can not afford at this point for GM to go bankrupt.
Some people say...well what if GM does not turn around or change. There is that risk....but America has taken a far greater risk, for much less impact in the past.
First, GM is not the only "US auto industry".
Second, as long as there is a need for the automobile, in some form, to provide for our nation's transportation; there will be companies building and selling automobiles here. The incentive for foreign (or domestic) nameplates to make them here will be the same as the incentive that exists today...it makes good business/economic sense to build cars in the U.S.; especially the models you want to sell in the U.S.
That's why, some thirty years ago, the transplants built plants here in the first place and why they've been expanding/building new plants ever since. If those foreign manufacturers decide to leave the U.S. it won't be because GM is no longer in North America.
Second, as long as there is a need for the automobile, in some form, to provide for our nation's transportation; there will be companies building and selling automobiles here. The incentive for foreign (or domestic) nameplates to make them here will be the same as the incentive that exists today...it makes good business/economic sense to build cars in the U.S.; especially the models you want to sell in the U.S.
That's why, some thirty years ago, the transplants built plants here in the first place and why they've been expanding/building new plants ever since. If those foreign manufacturers decide to leave the U.S. it won't be because GM is no longer in North America.