I don't want you to support a loan if you don't think it's a good idea. I wouldn't be much of a worthwhile neighbor if I was trying to convince you to be taken advantage of.

One simply has to go "gut" and conscience on this sort of thing.

No hard feelings either way.

 

I definitely see your point in this. I can't say that won't happen. Either way, it is a guess. I know that GM has plans to try to avoid that. With the economy in its current state, it might be better to this put off a year that to have it hit now. GM's place in the economy is probably larger than 25 billion a year. With all of the taxes it employees are paid, and its suppliers taxes are paid, that is probably greater than 25 billion dollars.

 

That very much depends on what you mean by change their minds. I am right on the fence with the big 3 bailouts... Im highly unlikely to move my opinon to a more social economic idea, but more information or answers could sway my opinion for what its worth.

Against it because

I only think GM is worth bailing out. Never liked Ford as a company in terms of how they treat customers. Who am I to choose who lives and who dies in a another Quasi Social move. I dont have any idea of the state of Chrysler.

If the Unions break under their own devices that weakens the argument to inflict them on companies that dont want to be burdened with them.

Where does it stop? Suppose GM gets the loan and needs another? and another? do we get to disolve the Unions as a requirement at some point as a contingency?

For it because

National Security standpoint of not wanting to have no US Auto manufacturers in the unlikely event of something like WWIII It is unlikely but the idea of not knowing who would be with us in such an event and how we would need to rely on a foriegn company us unresting.

It seems to be a loan with interest not Govt buy in or investment.

I dont like the idea of this GM change of management comming in with a chance to make our domestic GM car company great again and failing not because they didnt act but because of this disaster that noone expected... Someone please tell me the mismanagement leaders of the 90s are gone. Noone wants to lend money into a mismanaged company but I get the impression thats changed, Am I right?

because as a loan, you can treat it as one. with a required plan to pay the loan back and a plan for the future.


Im very torn... for whatever my opinon is worth...

 

this is why GM is in trouble. How can you agree with the UAW to waste money like?

http://nearing.newsvine.com/_news/20...year-on-viagra

 

Most companies stopped covering these kinds of "nice" but "not necessary" drugs quite a while ago...to think that GM is paying upwards of $17M a year for these kinds of drugs is sobering.

$17M here and $20M there and pretty soon you're talking about real money (to paraphrase Dirkson - boy was he a character!).

Regardless of what one thinks about this particular item...it think it correct to say that it's this kind of "stuff" that bothers a lot of people when we start talking about the Federal government stepping in to save a private business.

 

Everett Dirkson? Yes I remember him well. "A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money".

 

I'll bet there are a lot of folks on here who are asking themselves "Dirkson? Dirkson? Who the He&& is this Dirkson"?"

 

you need to remember.. America did just elect O a. so thinking they know anything about the industry is somewhat hilarious too. people are not informed. they think they are and then they screw it all up bc of this.

we need people that are educated for this, not someone in congress deciding how the bailout is spread. much much waste prob being done this way and this saddens me`

 

Hookem and Robert dug up a story from 2006. Lifestyle drug payments were cut off in the last contract. Even medication such as Alegra D was cut off. ASK ME ME HOW I KNOW! I work for GM.

Roger

 

It is Congress who will decide...there is no escaping that; their qualifications or lack thereof to do so notwithstanding.

 

I didn't dig anything up...I was not the source of the article.

Why don't you share the full details of the health care benefits that GM/UAW currently provides to its employees and retirees - it might help prevent any misunderstanding...perhaps things have gotten much better and health care costs have decreased over the past two years.

 

Given all the money spewing out of Washington in the name of the "economy", General Motors should be looking at this as their once in a lifetime chance to completely address all of their problems. With enough money, they can hit the reset button, restructure their business, and fix all the legacy costs, the brand management, the product turnaround, the dealerships, and so on. This is what the government is trying to do in the financial sector -- take out all the garbage at once, and start fresh.

And yes it would be risky, and expensive. However we could do it once and there would at least be light at the end of the tunnel.

However, I'm not seeing that being proposed. The "plan", as it were, seems to be get enough federal money to get over the immediate hump, but otherwise "doing the same things the same way and expecting different results", i.e. not fixing the underlying problems that brought them down to this point.

And if there's political resistance to an automotive bailout now, it could be worse in a couple years when the economy may be recovering. With record deficits looming and most likely tax increases, the public may be in a really foul mood in 2012 or so.

 

A few random thoughts.....


I have spent my entire adult life in uniform, supporting and defending our Constitution. I type this from the Iraqi desert, and I have to say it is not just sad, but nauseating.

Bob, you apear to be a well educated individual but in this instance your perspective seems to be off. It reminds me of the bumper-stickers I've seen: "Hungry, eat your import!" While the domestics have mis-managed their respective organizations in the past, they have actually been rebuilding their products and their orgainzations. Their failure would have affects farther than you either don't understand or refuse to accept. Regardless, while you are definately entitled to you opinion, you are respectfully, so dead-wrong and near-sighted it is almost painful to read some of your posts. Not because of any painful truths in them, but because they are just so completly lost.

Twice in as many days, I have heard Congressmen saying the Domestics need a "Car Czar". I couldn't agree more- clean house and put Bob Lutz, the Car Czar in charge of the recovery! GM is a car company that needs to remember that. They have been heading in the right direction in the past few years, perhaps this crisis will be the catalyst for real change in the corporate culture within GM resulting in a more agile, responsive company. I lothe the idea of taxpayer dollars being injected artificially into any industry, weather it be the banking, insurance, auto or any other for that matter. With that said, if we do not interviene on the behalf of the US Auto industry we are making a huge mistake that the average "Joe" can't fathom.

This statement is fundamental. Not just on the surface, based strictly on what is implicitly states but because it speaks to the continued out-sourcing of the very fabric of our society. At the rate we are going, China will never have to fire a shot, they will own us. I'm not talking about the loans our government contines to take out, I am referring to to out-sourcing of our very soul. As I stated, I do support assistance to the Auto industry but with the renewed focus on DOMESIC production. I understand the free-market and that it is cheaper to out-source but if we as a nation do not reclaim our proud tradition of industrial prominance, then we doom the future of our nation. We ensure our servitude to others....

The unions take a hell of a bashing and rightfully so for the sins of the past, but they finally recovered from their rectal-cranial inversion and realized if they continued to bleed the company dry, they'd starve in the process. My personal feelings about the unions are not germaine; they appear (on the surface anyway) to be trying to be part of the solution vice the problem.

I proudly own two Chevys and a Chrysler. Not so much because I will only buy domestic (which is the case now-days) but because I really like them. The average person out believes what the media spews instead of looking for facts and making an informed decision and right now they are being told the big 3 should file for bankruptcy or just go under. They are also reminded that Domestic products are inferior so we should not do Detriot any favors. I am amazed that I can see how insane it would be for the economy do let them fail despite the skewed reporting, and yet there is still discussion. I am no expert; I guess common sense is less common than ever.

We live in the American Idol generation, what ever kinda sounds good at the time wins. It's as if watching the Domestics die a gruesome death is entertainment for some, regardless of the consequences. That scares the crap out of me and makes MY job frustrating; to think I take up arms to defend such stupidity. I take comfort in the thought that is is still a free country.... for now. I shudder to think what it will be for my kids and someday my grand-kids. I am starting to feel like my career may be for not....

Scott, you and your co-workers are in my toughts. Hang in there; I'll dodge the bullets, you dodge the barbs. Just do whatever it takes to keep our country (no, it's not just about GM) on life-support until we can turn the corner.



Respectfully,

Allen

 

Alan,

I wore the uniform for over eight years (Active Duty USN) and I’ll tell you that I did so because I believed in supporting and protecting my country…a country that was supposed to be a representative democracy where the capitalistic free-enterprise system is practiced, personal liberty is respected, and personal responsibility is expected…in that kind of society once takes risks and if they succeed they are rewarded…if they don’t succeed, they are not rewarded and that used to be true at the personal level and at the corporate level.

Now we seem to be rushing headlong into a socialistic-democracy where free enterprise is almost seen as an enemy; where the word responsibility doesn’t seem to be used much anymore and where the answer to failure is to take money from the taxpayers at the point of a gun and give it to whomever those in power decide need it.

I just happen to think that’s a very bad idea…I think it's a bad idea where individuals are concerned...I think it's a bad idea where AIG is concerned and I think it's a bad idea where the auto industry is concerned.

If that makes me “completely lost” in your opinion, so be it.

Robert

 

Regardless of what one might think about the UWA's position here; it's difficult for me to understand why they would make statements like this in a press conference...while you are begging the taxpayer for money I just don't think it's a good idea to start drawing lines in the sand and effectively thumbing your nose at the very people you are asking to help you.


UAW leader says no more concessions


Link: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...yb39wD94FH2IO0