MagnumForce: Don't believe there's any new emission laws comming down the pike that would affect Turbos or anything else for that matter. Superchargers give immediate torque, which is what GM favors.

97z28, Monaro CV6 was discontinued not too long ago when the Monaro was redone.

GN1270, you seem to bring up how returning to the past for new car names is overall a bad idea. the 80s GNX was the #1 quickest car while the original was part of the musclecar pack.

A new GN doesn't have to be the fastest car in the US. To think a new GN should outrun a modern Viper, a Z06, or perhaps even a supercharged Cobra or base Corvette or else it should never be made IMHO is way too extremely narrow.

 

So you are assuming that a 3800 can handle the boost and 600 hp levels???

 

No but a new GN should be faster or at least as fast as an f-body or GTO.Putting an already weak supercharged 3800 (which is already in the Buick Regal) is a joke. And the Turbo Regal was the fastest American made production car in 1987, not just the GNX. It was faster than the Vette 0-60 and in the 1/4. GN ran (with a good driver) 14.1, Vette ran a 14.3. I had a magazine here somewhere that had the times from 1985 that came with the car when I bought it. The GNX ran low 13's and was hands down the fastest car of the year in 1987. Remember, there was no GNX in 1986 when the TR was named the fastest American made production car.

 

Isn't the 3800 the same 3.8 liter V-6 GM has used forever?

The only thing GM has done to it is to make improvements over the past 13 or so years.
I'm pretty sure they haven't made it worse.

GN,
What specifically makes the current 3.8 worse than the older 3.8?

 

I'd be all for a Monaro based GN. Of course the current Monaro will have a very limited lifespan......and limited additional manufacturing capacity. But putting that aside..I'm in favor of a variety of performance flavors from GM.

Even if the supercharged series III 3800 were used (rather than a new turbo motor)....300++ hp would easily be available, once the torque restrictions of the 4T65-E transaxle were no longer an issue. Frankly...I see 600 hp, or even anything remotely in that neigborhood as being completely unrealistic. It doesn't need to be, or even should be the fastest hot rod in the world.

Fast Buicks have always been "Gentlemen's Hot Rods". A low profile,very hot, , blown Buick V6 in a comfy, 5 passenger, RWD, 2 door sedan, would be very intriguing to me.

Of course, someone would need a compelling business case...I don't think GM would want to step on the toes of the GTO.

 

Its based off it, not the same motor. Show me a 3800 Camaro making 600hp. Its RWD, and i'm sure a few have tried to boost the motor to those levels. Now name a GM performance motor that can't handle close to 600hp.

GM only cares about stepping on the toes of the Corvette period

How hot is an 84 or 85 GN when it wasn't close to being the fastest car around? Would we bge having this conversation or even know what a GN was if they didn't make the intercooled cars?

I'd be all for a boosted 6 cyl with forged internal GN that runs low 13's stock. Like the original GN it would easily have room for improvement. If I gotta try to make a 3800 faster, i'll pass.

 

http://www.intense-racing.com/ have a nice day!

 

Sorry bud....you've lost me.

The series II and series III 3800 are more than just based on the 3.8...they are product improved versions of the 3.8. For all intents and purposes...they are newer versions of the Buick 3.8.
To me it's like saying that an L-98 is not a smallblock Chevy, because it doesn't share rear main seals, ignition type and main journal size with a 283.

As far as never seeing a 600hp, 3800 Camaro....well me niether...but unlike a TR....they never came with a turbo and intercooler.

Regarding the series II (and series III for thay matter), S/C 3800...they really seem more than capable of generating some very serious ponies. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the bottom ends of these motors seem just as strong as the old 3.8 Turbo's.

12 sec GTP's and GS's are not uncommon. The only thing limiting them from going faster is :

1) The "glass" 4T65-E trans axle. Even with aftermarket "heavy duty" mods....afew 12 sec passes is all these tranny's will handle before grenading.

2) Traction limited FWD launches.


....as you can see, the motors are overpowering the W-car chassis....I can't help but think how fast these motors would be in a RWD application.

BTW...are you really serious about a stock 600 hp....or have I misread your post?

 

They should make a new GN so in two years they can bring an F-Body back with its drive train to blow it away

 

Agreed that a new GN should be at least as quick as the new GTO (which seemingly is as fast as the last f-bods).

All things being equal, the GN certainly was quicker 0-60 than a Corvette by a full second. However, by the time the quarter came up, it was unquestionably a good drivers race between the 2 (as you pointed out typically less than a 0.2 second spread between the 2 but at exactly identical trap speeds). After the quarter, it was the Vette, hands down.

Worth noting to those who believe there was/is some unwritten rule at GM that nothing produces more horsepower or is quicker than the Corvette, Buick broke this rule. GNs were rated 245 hp(GNX was 276) while Corvettes of the day rated 240, and as mentioned, they were alot quicker at the stoplight Grand Prix.

 

Wheres the stock lower end 600hp motor??? Even harder, wheres the one w/out NOS?????

Its not the same, that is why NO parts are interchangeable. Also the GN motor had specific pistons and a crank out of the 4.1 which neither will fit in a 3800. Do you think they are going to develop new internals just for a GN??? So if the 3800 is such a great motor for performance, why don't V8 guys swap them for the V6?? GN guys seem to have done fine modifying their 3.8's so why do the Camaro guys lack so badly????????????????????Took an f-body a little longer than a couple of years to "blow the doors off" a GN. A GN kept up with the LT1 and the GNX still keeps up with the LS1. Remember, GN ran all its magazine times on lil skinny tires and weighs about 100 to 200 lbs more and is a brick compared to an f-body.

 

How could the 3.8 share the same pistons and crank as the 4.1?
Don't the pistons dictate the bore size?
And doesn't the crank dictate the stroke?
So if the 3.8 had the same pistons and crank as the 4.1, wouldn't that mean that the 3.8s were really 4.1s?
I thought the 3.8s were 3.8s and the 4.1s were 4.1s.
Are you saying that the 3.8 turbo motors were actually 4.1 engines?



And yes, the new 3.8s probably can't share too many parts with the old ones. But that's because GM IMPROVED the parts over time. Not made them worse.

 

I'm all for giving credit where credit is due but I had an 87 GN I know how fast they were.
By 89 (two years later) a stock f-body had a better intercooler, better heads, higher compression and ran more boost than a GN.
We also were 0-60 in under 5 seconds and running low 13's in the 1/4 mile, easily blowing the doors off a stock GN's low to mid 14 second times and matching or exceeding the performance of the limited production GNX in every respect.
I didn't want to hijack this thread, I just think it would be cool if they bought a GN back and in two years an F-Body beat it (again)

 

The 3800 is a lightweight casting of the original 3.8. It was designed for FWD applications. Nobody uses 3800 blocks to build GN motors. It's doubtful the 3800 block could hold much over 400hp without grenading. Putting a supercharged 3800 in a Buick GN would be a disgrace and should be reserved for pseudo performance cars like the Monte Carlo SS, Impala SS and whatever else SS.

If the GN ever comes back it should be like GN1270 says. Otherwise why screw up yet another glorified pedigree like the GN.

Oh and BTW the 89 TTA is ALL BUICK drivetrain. Just because Pontiac reached over the wall and grabbed the GN's drivetrain doesn't mean much when discussing turbo 3.8 vs other GM performance.

 

They shared the same crank, not the same Pistons. GN pisons were specific to the GN which were developed from Buick's Diesel motor program. Crank does not determine bore size.

2 different blocks. The 4.1's are actually a little weaker than the 3.8

Funny how you use the same Buick motor in an f-body to make your point, but its still a weak point. The TTA was 150 to 200#'s lighter than a GN, had bigger tires, more boost, and better aerodynamics and could only match the GNX. TTA didn't have better heads. They had different heads to clear the strut towers. Tom at Champion racing heads has flowed many sets of both and said the TTA's on its best day would MAYBE flow 5hp more than a GN. Because of the heads they had to use DIFFERENT pistons and they had to use a different intercooler to fit it in an f-body. A GN guy can make the argument that you don't get as much cooling through your IC because you don't have a huge grill to flow it through.

To sum it up....TTA...The best Pontiac Buick ever built.