Jim Wangers comments on the 2004 GTO
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 59
"The true Pontiac enthusiasts - who are in their
60s and 70s today and who grew up with the GTO- won't like it because it doesn't have a hood scoop ... but they'll get over it."
I wonder how much Pontiac paid him to say this?
They'll get over it, LOL not bloody likely. I think they hate it for a lot more reason of lacking a hoodscoop too...
60s and 70s today and who grew up with the GTO- won't like it because it doesn't have a hood scoop ... but they'll get over it."
I wonder how much Pontiac paid him to say this?
They'll get over it, LOL not bloody likely. I think they hate it for a lot more reason of lacking a hoodscoop too...
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 163
From: Dallas, TX
Doug is starting to convince me. Maybe the GTO badge doesnt belong on the Monaro.
Not because the Monaro isnt a GTO, but because the Monaro is something that the GTO name doesnt do justice too. The Monaro will hand the GTO's of "the good ole days" its a$$ in every catagory, and do it with more style than anything ever graced with a GTO badge.
Happy Doug?
I, in fact, dont understand your logic. You say the GTO went down hill in its last years, becoming a mockery of its namesake. So GM brings you a car that outperforms your precious classic GTO's across the board, is RWD V8 2D with unparalleled confort and style, taking the name to heights it has never known, and you throw the red flag. The GTO badge is on this car, nothing you can do about it, and the reality of the situation is, with this car now wearing the GTO badge, the old cars you speak of now become the unworthy.
Not because the Monaro isnt a GTO, but because the Monaro is something that the GTO name doesnt do justice too. The Monaro will hand the GTO's of "the good ole days" its a$$ in every catagory, and do it with more style than anything ever graced with a GTO badge.
Happy Doug?
I, in fact, dont understand your logic. You say the GTO went down hill in its last years, becoming a mockery of its namesake. So GM brings you a car that outperforms your precious classic GTO's across the board, is RWD V8 2D with unparalleled confort and style, taking the name to heights it has never known, and you throw the red flag. The GTO badge is on this car, nothing you can do about it, and the reality of the situation is, with this car now wearing the GTO badge, the old cars you speak of now become the unworthy.
Prominent Member
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,282
Boy.....
Originally posted by L.A. Z
.........The GTO badge is on this car, nothing you can do about it, and the reality of the situation is, with this car now wearing the GTO badge, the old cars you speak of now become the unworthy.
.........The GTO badge is on this car, nothing you can do about it, and the reality of the situation is, with this car now wearing the GTO badge, the old cars you speak of now become the unworthy.
Fact is, I know there's nothing that can be done about this re-badged Monaro....didn't think they'd listen to little ol' me anyhow....BUT, I'm gonna' keep both barrels loaded for the return of the Camaro..............
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Boy this thread's been on fire today! 
Doug, I can see your point about wanting an American made car as a representative of a historic American muscle car, and I perfectly understand this. But...
It seems you are lumping this with GM's greatest hits like the rechristened Impala, Malibu, & the SS name on pickup trucks & SUVs, which is where I have to disagree. Sure, the GTO is made by Holden in Australia, and shipped here because GM North America has nothing in it's inventory that can even come close.
If the car were imported here & called Monaro GTO, would you still hold the same view? What about if Holden had called Monaro LeMans instead? The point I'm trying to make is that when everything is distilled, I suspect that the only reason GTO has created an uproar with some people is because it isn't made in the USA.
Some people complain about a lack of hood scoops, others complain simply because it doesn't look like a 1966 LeMans. In those instances, if I was in the position of some of GM's management, I'd have an attitude as well. Why would I take seriously anyone who forgot GTO was an option on a mid size car, and whose only complaint is a lack of a styling link to a car that's been dead for over 30 years, even though the new one will hand any old one it's lunch, and alot of people went through alot of effort to bring performance back.
I applaud the fact that you are one of the very few GTO critics who can actually look at the car objectively and agree it's a great car in it's own right. And as I said, although I disagree on this with you, I can see the point you're making about wanting an American car as a GTO.
Doug, I can see your point about wanting an American made car as a representative of a historic American muscle car, and I perfectly understand this. But...
It seems you are lumping this with GM's greatest hits like the rechristened Impala, Malibu, & the SS name on pickup trucks & SUVs, which is where I have to disagree. Sure, the GTO is made by Holden in Australia, and shipped here because GM North America has nothing in it's inventory that can even come close.
If the car were imported here & called Monaro GTO, would you still hold the same view? What about if Holden had called Monaro LeMans instead? The point I'm trying to make is that when everything is distilled, I suspect that the only reason GTO has created an uproar with some people is because it isn't made in the USA.
Some people complain about a lack of hood scoops, others complain simply because it doesn't look like a 1966 LeMans. In those instances, if I was in the position of some of GM's management, I'd have an attitude as well. Why would I take seriously anyone who forgot GTO was an option on a mid size car, and whose only complaint is a lack of a styling link to a car that's been dead for over 30 years, even though the new one will hand any old one it's lunch, and alot of people went through alot of effort to bring performance back.
I applaud the fact that you are one of the very few GTO critics who can actually look at the car objectively and agree it's a great car in it's own right. And as I said, although I disagree on this with you, I can see the point you're making about wanting an American car as a GTO.
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 361
From: Connecticut
Styling is a matter of opinion. You can't argue styling with someone, but to say GM should not have made it because of the styling will only be told in the sales figures.I like blondes, you like brunettes....
GTO's for the most part ran low 14's, unless you had a 2bbl carb, then it got even worse.
MonAro-300hp
MonAro GTO-400hp
The name is already there. You are not getting a Monaro, if you were it would have 300hp, not 340 to 360.
I stand by the fact that there is no reason why this car doesn't deserve to be called GTO. Should we have changed the Camaro's name when it was moved to Canada?? Speaking of Canada, they had alot of GM cars that were US built but had different badges.
GTO's for the most part ran low 14's, unless you had a 2bbl carb, then it got even worse.
MonAro-300hp
MonAro GTO-400hp
The name is already there. You are not getting a Monaro, if you were it would have 300hp, not 340 to 360.
I stand by the fact that there is no reason why this car doesn't deserve to be called GTO. Should we have changed the Camaro's name when it was moved to Canada?? Speaking of Canada, they had alot of GM cars that were US built but had different badges.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
I have a rather complex and covoluted view of all of this.
On the one hand:
I think the new GTO is GREAT! I believe it is truly worthy of previous GTO's both in performance and image. Sure, we can pick nits about heritage styling and not MADE IN USA. But it is the best we're gonna get...for now.
And on the other:
I see Doug's point too.
Believe it or not the most important GM product to me by far, is the next Camaro. Maybe we can use the GTO as a sort of a forward line of defense so to speak to let GM know that enthusiasts are watching them...and just good enough WILL NOT AT ALL, BE GOOD ENOUGH WHEN IT COMES TO THE NEXT CAMARO!
So Doug, I can't say I agree with everything you've got to say on this....but I'm all for you prepping the battlefield for the upcoming BIG fight.
Keep their feet to the fire.
On the one hand:
I think the new GTO is GREAT! I believe it is truly worthy of previous GTO's both in performance and image. Sure, we can pick nits about heritage styling and not MADE IN USA. But it is the best we're gonna get...for now.
And on the other:
I see Doug's point too.
Believe it or not the most important GM product to me by far, is the next Camaro. Maybe we can use the GTO as a sort of a forward line of defense so to speak to let GM know that enthusiasts are watching them...and just good enough WILL NOT AT ALL, BE GOOD ENOUGH WHEN IT COMES TO THE NEXT CAMARO!
So Doug, I can't say I agree with everything you've got to say on this....but I'm all for you prepping the battlefield for the upcoming BIG fight.
Keep their feet to the fire.
Last edited by Z284ever; Jan 12, 2003 at 04:07 PM.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 564
From: Fletcher, NC, US
Originally posted by GN1270
Speaking of Canada, they had alot of GM cars that were US built but had different badges.
Speaking of Canada, they had alot of GM cars that were US built but had different badges.
as to gtjeff's quote: "The new gto in my view is missing the styling and price of the old gto's." ... can you name ONE car made today that has the styling of the old GTO's? Didn't think so. The fact is that the old GTO's look was closely related to the average Pontiac of the day, and the new GTO is exactly the same way. Factory hood scoops are on the way in 05 or the redesigned 06; aftermarket hoods will be available immediately when the 04 GTO comes out, so that's nothing to fuss over either. As far as price.. you gotta be kidding. 30-40 years of inflation is your answer to that one.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 388
From: Racine, WI
Id have to dispute the price issue. If GM could sell a v8 Camaro for 22K, they could have built a higher volume GTO here in the US/Canada for 22-30k had they not shifted most of their plants/platforms over to produce trucks/suv's.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by kizz
...as to gtjeff's quote: "The new gto in my view is missing the styling and price of the old gto's." ... can you name ONE car made today that has the styling of the old GTO's? ....
...as to gtjeff's quote: "The new gto in my view is missing the styling and price of the old gto's." ... can you name ONE car made today that has the styling of the old GTO's? ....
Cadillac CTS!
Thread Starter
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 200
From: Sydney, Australia
Wow - what a hornets nest I've stirred up ...
Just got one comment to add - the whole GTO project has been all of 12 MONTHS so far, and to have taken a non-US design and developed it this far is a tribute to all those involved, both here in Oz and in the States.
Just got one comment to add - the whole GTO project has been all of 12 MONTHS so far, and to have taken a non-US design and developed it this far is a tribute to all those involved, both here in Oz and in the States.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,647
From: At car shows and cruise nights!
DH, some just don't get it and don't understand. It's so important to do things right, but many will except whatever.
This car is what we have to work with right now though, there's no choice. I just hope the scoops are offered sometime soon, its stupid enough it looks like a previous model GP/GA. Lets see the results the car brings.
This car is what we have to work with right now though, there's no choice. I just hope the scoops are offered sometime soon, its stupid enough it looks like a previous model GP/GA. Lets see the results the car brings.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 220
From: TN
it's interesting that people bring up the point about the GTO looking like other pontiacs(grand prix,grand am),and somehow,that's okay because the original GTO looked similar to other pontiacs,BUT,the pontiacs of the '60s were some of the most stylish of the era('62 grand prix,venturas,catalinas),to pull something out of context does not excuse the styling,if buying a car in the '60s,i'd rather have my GTO resemble a catalina 2+2 or a '62 bonneville or '63 grand prix than buying a current GTO that resembles the hohum generic styling of the day.
the '64 GTO kick-started the muscle car era,it does not matter what the new GTO can do performance wise or not,a neon SRT could kick a '64 GTO's ***.what does matter is the impact it made and the performance for the era.what impact is the new one going to have??what we have is a stopgap badge-engineered rush job of a GTO because GM needed something,anything to appease the carnuts it pissed all over when it killed the f-body.they either should have waited for a homegrown GTO or left the name in car heaven.how does that make sense,they say there is no market for the f-body and then they turn around and start selling basically the same type car,only more expensive,probably slower and it looks like a cavalier.and it's chevy powered!!a chevy powered GTO!!!that's all the argument you need that it doesn't deserve the name.
the '64 GTO kick-started the muscle car era,it does not matter what the new GTO can do performance wise or not,a neon SRT could kick a '64 GTO's ***.what does matter is the impact it made and the performance for the era.what impact is the new one going to have??what we have is a stopgap badge-engineered rush job of a GTO because GM needed something,anything to appease the carnuts it pissed all over when it killed the f-body.they either should have waited for a homegrown GTO or left the name in car heaven.how does that make sense,they say there is no market for the f-body and then they turn around and start selling basically the same type car,only more expensive,probably slower and it looks like a cavalier.and it's chevy powered!!a chevy powered GTO!!!that's all the argument you need that it doesn't deserve the name.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by Derek Smalls
it's interesting that people bring up the point about the GTO looking like other pontiacs(grand prix,grand am),and somehow,that's okay because the original GTO looked similar to other pontiacs,BUT,the pontiacs of the '60s were some of the most stylish of the era('62 grand prix,venturas,catalinas),to pull something out of context does not excuse the styling,if buying a car in the '60s,i'd rather have my GTO resemble a catalina 2+2 or a '62 bonneville or '63 grand prix than buying a current GTO that resembles the hohum generic styling of the day.
the '64 GTO kick-started the muscle car era,it does not matter what the new GTO can do performance wise or not,a neon SRT could kick a '64 GTO's ***.what does matter is the impact it made and the performance for the era.what impact is the new one going to have??what we have is a stopgap badge-engineered rush job of a GTO because GM needed something,anything to appease the carnuts it pissed all over when it killed the f-body.they either should have waited for a homegrown GTO or left the name in car heaven.how does that make sense,they say there is no market for the f-body and then they turn around and start selling basically the same type car,only more expensive,probably slower and it looks like a cavalier.and it's chevy powered!!a chevy powered GTO!!!that's all the argument you need that it doesn't deserve the name.
it's interesting that people bring up the point about the GTO looking like other pontiacs(grand prix,grand am),and somehow,that's okay because the original GTO looked similar to other pontiacs,BUT,the pontiacs of the '60s were some of the most stylish of the era('62 grand prix,venturas,catalinas),to pull something out of context does not excuse the styling,if buying a car in the '60s,i'd rather have my GTO resemble a catalina 2+2 or a '62 bonneville or '63 grand prix than buying a current GTO that resembles the hohum generic styling of the day.
the '64 GTO kick-started the muscle car era,it does not matter what the new GTO can do performance wise or not,a neon SRT could kick a '64 GTO's ***.what does matter is the impact it made and the performance for the era.what impact is the new one going to have??what we have is a stopgap badge-engineered rush job of a GTO because GM needed something,anything to appease the carnuts it pissed all over when it killed the f-body.they either should have waited for a homegrown GTO or left the name in car heaven.how does that make sense,they say there is no market for the f-body and then they turn around and start selling basically the same type car,only more expensive,probably slower and it looks like a cavalier.and it's chevy powered!!a chevy powered GTO!!!that's all the argument you need that it doesn't deserve the name.
Even though the world evolves in the mean time, like Rip van Winkle waking from a 30 year nap, the expectation would be as things were, not are, no matter how good things turn out in the end.
The same thing would happen if someone brought back a Studebaker Hawk or a Plymouth Road Runner. I think we can say there is most certainly a statute of limitations on a car being brought back from the dead.
By the way, the f-body wasn't killed off just because of sales. There are a number of reasons it was pulled. Doug hit a big part of it on the head in another thread. There's a really good reason noone is talking about Camaro.
Just a thought, but 'maybe' the reason they can't talk about it and the reason we don't have one...'yet', are 2 different, separate reasons.
