VERY GOOD POINT!!!

They ALL drop like a rock in the first two years; some more than others for sure but none are truly "GOOD" at holding their initial value.

Now, in the longer term (three, four, five yeras or more out) then you start seeing some measurable differences between various models/nameplates.

 

Id give that some merit too, Robert. For example, a 95 Civic hatch with 185,000 miles versus a 95 Cavalier with Any miles.

 

Anecdotal indeed. My brother's wife was driving around in a 200k+ Olds Eighty Eight before they moved to Germany with the Army, with only minor maint. stuff done.

A fellow on this very board posted about having a Tacoma for about 40k miles that was in the shop for 4 or 5 issues during that time. He got rid of it for a Colorado, which after 40k miles has had zero issues.

As for the basic engineering, the engineers at GM are every bit as competent as engineers anywhere in the world. One thing to keep in mind is that engineers have to consider cost in anything they are designing. When you have a built in deficit of $1500/car in health care for retirees who don't even work for the company any more, you have a pretty big disadvantage. So the engineer (and the engineers at the suppliers) have to stretch pretty thin to make a part as reliable and effective but for less than ideal dough, perhaps.

Do not doubt the ability of GM engineers to create absolutely awesome stuff. Witness the Corvette and Z06, for example. To get anywhere near the level of performance and drivability of those two cars, you basically have to spend twice as much money, or more. Witness the dual mode hybrid system, first developed at Allison Transmission (and used in the big busses), now being adapted and improved (along with DCX and BMW) for use in civilian cars and trucks.

Since I brought up the cost advantage due to health care, what is really great about this is the same people who are buying Toyotas and Hondas, causing GM to skim by in terms of revenue/profits, will probably the the same people to **** and moan if Ford or GM were to crumble and have to break their obligation to pay for all those retirees. "Oh, look, Ford is stabbing its retirees in the back, man am I glad I bought a Honda; they'd never do that..."

Sorry for the tangent, but this whole thing would be humerous if it weren't so damn serious and critical...

 

This is true. In fact, this is why my Grandfather buys Hondas. (They got hooked on them when they lived in Jersey and their son, my uncle, took a job as a salesman at a Honda dealer. They tried one since he got them a good deal, and they love them. They've owned a few since then...)

Of course, when people start talking about the "wrong" that GM/Ford did 20-40 years ago as though it was some unforgivable, despicable act, I like to point out that it wasn't long before THAT when we were mortal enemies of the Japanese who had brutally attacked us and drawn us into a world war...

I had this argument with my grandfather once. My basic point was that if you are going to hold a couple of quality problems on a car from 30 years ago against GM/Ford, why do you not hold WW2 against the Japanese? Do you not think that people have come and gone and things could have changed over the last 30 years at GM/Ford? His basic response was that it is the same company, blah blah. By the way, that is the "same company" that stopped building cars and started building tanks, airplane engines, and so forth...Of course, I followed that with a question about what is so different about Japan then? There you are talking about the culture of a nation, not just the products of a company. If Japan is given a second chance to be our friends, shouldn't you people consider giving GM/Ford a second chance, instead of writing them off?

I had a pretty strong disagreement with my grandfather over that. And I consider him to be one of the smartest, sharpest people I've ever met or known, from anywhere.

 

My intent wasn't to disparage the engineers. I fully understand how engineering works, and I realize that in many (but not all) cases the decision is out of the design engineer's hands. But regardless of how we got to this point, at the end of the day the result is the same: there's some less than ideal products still rolling off GM's assembly lines.

 

People do have long memories…I mean, here in the south, many people are still fighting the “War of Northern Aggression” (also known as the American Civil War) and I think it’s obvious that there are more than a few people on this board who hate Asian cars in general and Japanese cars in particular simply because they are Asian/Japanese cars; not for any logical, rational reason.

What I’m getting at is that people remembering their experiences of 20 or 30 years ago with Detroit’s vehicles shouldn’t be a big surprise…not because GM/Ford “can’t be forgiven” just that it’s difficult to overcome a bad, personal, experience.

I suggest we also keep in mind that enthusiasts, such as those who participate in boards like this, suffer from the very common malady of thinking that everybody thinks like they do in that because they are so involved and interested in cars, everybody else is as well…the truth is, however, that the average person doesn’t look at J.D. Power IQS results nor are they swayed by the alleged “biased press” because they don’t really read there either…they buy vehicles based on suggestions from relatives, friends, commercials and whatever strikes their fancy at the moment they decide it’s time to buy…they may have heard, from sources they can’t even remember, that Japanese cars are more reliable or get better gas mileage (or commercials tell them so) and so they go out and that’s what they buy.

 

Well, yes. But keep in mind that GM has also generally chosen an ASP that's $2K lower than Toyota/Honda, AND is very likely cost-engineering for the $1500 rebate they are inevitably going to put on the thing.

So, the consumer might perceive correctly that the Toyota is $4000 more car than the Chevy. He still might buy the Chev as a "better value", but "Wouldn't you really rather have a Toyota?" is going to be going through his mind.

The biggest problem GM has IMO is that their marketing strategy has been totally disconnected with the fact they have this huge cost structure. The fixed costs are not going entirely away short of bankruptcy -- the company has to adapt to it (and dumping a bunch of cheap W-Cars on fleets is not the way to do it.)

Well, Lutz says GM is trying to change this equasion, but for the most part he's talking about future models, not what's on the lot today.

I'm also not totally convinced people are talking about domestic reputation from 30 years ago. More like 10.

 

That's exactly my point. In my earlier post in this thread, I was discussing that.

People DO read newspapers and watch the news. Or their friends do. So it may just take a few of these irresponsible "news" reports in which they yet again point out the majesty of Toyota and the financial difficulties of GM/Ford. They see a couple of articles like that, and it sticks. As you said, they aren't enthusiasts. They go by what they see and hear from friends, relatives, or what they catch glimpses of on the news or in the paper.

Also, there are LOTS of non-enthusiasts who still do at least some research, but that research is more likely to come from Consumer Reports or Edmunds.com.

Enough little seeds get planted, and all the sudden you've got a large chunk of buyers who simply think Japanese cars are automatically better. Even if they've never driven or owned a domestic themselves.

Non-enthusiast buyer: Hey, check out my new Camry!
More car knowledgable guy: That's nice. Did you take a look at the Impala or Saturn Aura while you were shopping?
NEB: No, I just bought the Camry. My friends say that domestic cars are junk and get crappy fuel economy and that Toyotas rule!
MCKG: :blah:

 

I wonder what percentage of people surveyed were going to buy over leasing.

Anyone know the breakdown of people who buy over lease a new vehical? Also, is this only cars or does it include trucks?

I know you guys are going to tear this suvey a new one, but what new cars out are out there for the home team? The Kappa cars are still relativity new. The W cars are the ones that have been the big sellers and how long has it been since they had a complete redesign? Sure they have had a face lift, but when was the last time the general public saw a complete redsign of the cars? If there hasn't been real redesign of the car, I would think that the general public would still see the W cars as the same old ones that may or may not have given them problems. Why buy sometime again if the who car hasn't been redesigned?

 

I would agree with that last assumsion. Even though just about every so call Auto reviewer might not care for anything from Detroit, I think they have very little influance on the average joe. If anything, I would think that Consumer Reports would be the only one that would have any kind of influance on any buyer, but even that I'm not sure of.

 

This thread represents my reasoning that American car companies should start building more dynamic cars that further themselves from the likes of the Japanese offerings. Cars like the Ford rwd in another thread and the Aussie car comming here as a G8 or Grand Prix.

At the same time (or over the next half decade) I think Americans are going to start seeing that when Toyota and Honda start making cars that are as heavy and powerfull and high volume as their American competitors that they have quality problems as well.

I also think this surge of Kia-type car buying will hurt some foriegn makers at the same time as they start to see that these like Kias and Hundais are just as bad as the late 80's American cars were.

 

I agree.

 

That may be the case for SOME people, but not all. Me personally? I find just about every car, from every manufacturer BORING!!! The magazines, commercials, whomever, "say" that these Camrys, Corrolas, Civics, etc., etc., are "fun", "sporty", etc. ..... have these people actually driven them, and then driven a REAL sports car???!!!

... ok, so I'm maybe focussed on a small fragment of the market ("sports cars") ... but let's talk something main-stream, like TRUCKS. I could never be convinced to buy anything other than a new GM truck, because of (mainly) their ENGINES (Gen-III SBC's ) and the rest of the driveline, as well as (for me) their interiors (while "maybe" lacking in "quality"? ) they "appear" nice to me, and overall, I like the trucks! Oh, and I just researched fuel economy in another thread recently ... the Silverado's out-performed all (import trucks) but the Honda Ridgeline for fuel economy, but they also out-powered all of the competition (yes, even the "mighty" Toyota Tundra ).

And here's a another question/problem. The Toyota Matrix / Pontiac Vibe. Same car? Same engine? Who builds what on that car?? How do you convince someone that if they spend more money for the Matrix, they're not getting any more quality for it??? (seriously, I've had this debate with a couple people I work with).

 

The key term is 'perceived' quality. When you sit in a Toyota and observe the fit and finish, quality of plastics, the warm and inviting surround, ranging from the clear and bright instrumentation, to the look and feel of the leather steering wheel and instrumentation cowl - all things that a customer immediately feels and casts an impression of overall quality - does a GM car compare favourably?

Regarding perceptions on fuel economy, Toyota's fuel economy is generally great on their small cars but I don't believe this perception is also carried over on their SUVs simply because I don't believe that consumers would expect great fuel economy on SUVs.

As for reliability, maybe Detroit still has some way to go to convince import buyers to step back into domestics but there are countless happy owners of GM or Ford products who haven't had much to complain about... If you look hard enough there are lots of forums describing ownership woes of engine failures and the like and not all experiences are isolated to domestics either - that also includes Toyota!

 

In this same vein, today compare the product portfolios of Toyonda against the domestics. What's missing? Some are hit or miss but quite a bit is non existent in general. Only non-domestic that veers from the conservative straight and narrow is Nissan. Toyonda would seem to have a very middle of the road portfolio.

What are the Toyonda equivalents for....

Suburban / Yukon / Expedition
300 / Charger / SRT-8s
CTS V / STS V
Mustang / GT500
Silverado / F-150 (true 1/2 and multitude configurations)
Viper
Silverado HD / F Series SD (gas and diesel)
Ford GT
Corvette / Z06
Cobalt SS
Solstice / Sky
G6 Coupe Hardtop

Thus with all the props and enthusiasm for Toyonda, does America really want to trade in their domestic portfolio, purchase and drive the Toyonda flavor?

Considering the multitude of models and variants the domestics produce are all these comparisons propping the Toyonda machine done from a level playing field? Would Americans be happy if the domestics mimicked the Toyonda profolio exactly without all these other products (listed above)? If the domestics did this, there’s a strong certainty that these would be very strong probably class leading produces, but good lord at the end of the day a Camry is still a Camry and not large V8 coupe/sedan nor could you tow your 5th wheel around the country with it.