With all due respect. You have stated a lot without having stated anything in your post. You have refuted suggestions without actually giving any constructive counter-arguments... which is pretty odd for somebody who claims they have 'intelligence'.

And neither you nor I know ProudPony, so I don't know how you could draw accurate conclusions about his character... I know I can't.

Btw, as AdioSS put it, he has a vested interest in oil stocks... so he chooses to disbelieve information presented in this thread. Nobody is forcing opinions onto anyone... it's just information provided to possibly explain 'the bigger picture' to those who might not have known what might be happening in this big bad world and what repurcussions those actions might have on our daily lives.

The truth is out there... it's up to you to research it, not for any of us to convince you differently!

 

I haven't read the thread. I read part of it early on, then more was posted, and I haven't caught up yet. I noticed that the stock and fuel prices have been going down again, so I made a comment. I invest for the long term. I don't worry about Day-to-day performance.

 

Just checking in to state that I've been off the 'net for the last week, and that I have a lot of reading to catch up on in this thread over the next few days. There's some eye-opening stuff here...

 

Hi Eric

I was wondering where you got to, buddy! Looking forward to your input because I don't think we've remotely scratched the surface yet...

 

Why should I be embarrassed? For trying to get people to think about something instead of being another just another "sheeple" in the herd?
I am not embarrassed about anything - but thanks for caring about my feelings!

I actually run my life and household like a business. I look for cheap but effective suppliers (grocery stores, hardware stores, clothing, autoparts, etc) and try to establish relationships with them - where they trust me and get my business, and I trust them to do a fair job at a fair price. I provide services and product for others that I sell - whether it is my service as an engineer, mowing a yard while the neighbors are away, selling an old car that I have found/restored, or letting some institution use my cash while I don't need it.

So tell me exactly why it is forbode for me to expect the same bank wanting to loan me money at 19% to offer me a paltry 3% on a CD, 1.5% on a savings account, and basically noting on a checking account? Two businesses - one public, one private... they have money to loan and I have money to loan... WHAT is so different? By your very own statement, MY business deserves good numbers too.
Methinks you should rethink your comment, and come back for more discussion.

The REASON for "the corporate power and wealth" you mentioned in the first sentence above is EXACTLY what is being discussed?!?! What has transpired over the last 110 years with Standard Oil, Chase Bank, The World Bank, the IMF, and the territorial disputes (a.k.a. wars) throughout the middle east, contracts, pacts, and agreements that are all HISTORY... these are all historical facts, easily studied and understood by those who will simply take the time and effort to do so. History is FAR different than a conspiracy theory, and I am far from force-feeding anyone to believe anything otherwise. I'm just bringing a few widely-unknown facts to the table... I want you to believe whatever you want to - just make it an educated decision, not one painted for you by the media or by heresay.

As for the comment about America being gas-dependent... I couldn't agree more. I am guilty myself and admit it. I drove 1-hour to work each way for 15 years. I have a farm that we keep just for wildlife - we plant fields in crops just for deer and turkeys and such. I love to race cars... drag, auto-X, road-courses - you name it. It's a HUGE waste of fuel for me to drive 200 miles to a road course, burn 2 tanks of premium running 320 miles at top speed, and drive back home with nothing gained but some paperwork and a smile. Have I changed? You bet! Drive 6 miles to work now. Drive a 4-cyl getting 35-40 mpg instead of Explorers getting 20 or 5.0's getting 26-28. I am cutting back on the racing this year, concentrating on my kid's soccer instead (went 3-0-0 in a tourney this weekend!).
BUT GET THIS STRAIGHT... the entire gas crisis in the 1970's was fabricated on paper - if there was a true shortage then as they wanted us to believe, we would not still be using gas today - we'd be all out of crude! The scam was uncovered when Nixon died, and it is out there - go find it. We all know history repeats itself... and so it is today. What is going on today is a fleecing... a transition of wealth from one sector to another. It is planned, and it is being done on purpose. As long as you know this is being done on purpose by powerful entities - that it is not just some random path of various economic pressures that has led us to this point - then I'm happy. You feel free to decide exactly how these entities work and how deep their control runs, just don't sit on the side believing that "the economy" did this.
Sheeple are the biggest waste of resources on this earth... we don't need any more of them, we need people who can think for themselves and care about their future and the future of their kids, grandkids, etc and will do something about it.

I guess you think oil is going back down to $60/bbl, gas will go to $2/gal, and we all will live happily ever after.
Study the Trojan Horse.
In addition to Marrs, try reading some Governmental reports, classified disclosures, and history too. I prefer to draw my own conclusions from facts as opposed to having someone else feed them to me.

No, you are quite wrong there. I don't have the slightest interest in getting anyone else to take my POV. I DO want them to THINK for themselves and not be blindly led. THAT'S ALL.
I have (and still do) change my views of anything and everything as I continue to learn more about them - every day. You can't possibly think I had my current view of Exxon while I was 16 and just got my license - do you? I am on a never-ending journey - call it a quest for truth... the only think that sets me apart is that I go after it, instead of wanting someone to hand it to me.
Thanks for calling me "intelligent" though. That was sweet, and I appreciate the gesture.

I do step away - didn't touch a computer from Friday afternoon until today. I spent all day Saturday (7am-8pm) with my wife and kid at a soccer tournament. Family day! It was great. Looked at some new Ford stuff at a local dealer while at lunch too. Spent the day yesterday watching olympics, doing chores, cleaning basement, and relaxing around the house. Regardless of what you might think, I'm not psyhco... I do have a great life and I enjoy it all I can. In fact, it is this wonderful life that I want to keep, and protect, for myself, my family, my friends, and my fellow Americans. It is this very lifestyle that is most at jeopardy because every day our standard of living is going down a little more.

So if I'm guilty of anything, I'm guilty of giving a crap about YOU and everyone else on this earth that is working hard and trying to give your kids a better world than the one you came into. I dig for truth, I study, I read, I go, I do, and most of all - I SHARE... compassion, love, wealth, knowledge, and time to name a few. That's it - I'm busted... exposed... out of the closet.

 

Ditto!!! I am heavy into utility companies, and the corporate stocks that I hold directly are ones that I feel will do well in the long-run, so I buy 'em, put 'em away, and forget about them. The blends that come via my 401K are so spread out that I don't have any concern about any one sector of the market.

AdioSS, your comment is a sign (to me anyways) that you are a "modest" person wrt/ your investments - you are willing to accept a decent return over the long haul, not needing/wanting to make a killing in one month. I do the same.

 

Absolutely buddy. Your response above shows your lack of understanding and thus we should all pay no attention to your comments.

I've been doing 22-26% the last several months.

7% profit is nothing, especially for a big company selling a necessity.

 

Take a look at KMP if you haven't already. Good, steady growth with intelligent and vested management, plus they pay a very nice dividend. As a matter of fact, there's your 7% right there!

 

Actually, 7% is an EMBARASSMENT for the biggest player in a regulated oligopoly selling "a necessity".
But then again, I'm sure we'll never know the real wealth generated for the middlemen between the oil fields and the gas pumps, so it doesn't matter anyways.

And this is where you miss the boat completely... the entire premise of the last 20 posts if not the thread as a whole. The wealth you are seeing (and you are defending) actually disclosed from ExxomMobil is just a sliver of the whole picture. There is untold wealth being shifted beind the scenes, in banking institutions, companies, govermental agencies, and even countries.

So using your ideology, they should simply go ahead and put the price of gas straight to $10 or $20/gal because 1) they can, 2) they should - it's only good business sense to maximize profits, and 3) it's a necessity - we must have it so we will pay. Some companies make %20-30% margins - it's ONLY fair that big oil companies should too!

Your attitude is exactly what they play off of... it's what they need/want to propagate. If only everyone in the free world had the same attitutde, it's be so much easier to ovetake. Congratulations - you're easier to control and manipulate via your purse-strings and business ethics. I wouldn't brag about it.

Remember... "All is fair in love and war - especially when you (or your puppeteers) make the rules".


BTW... Just because I used 7% in my post (which came from another post relating to Exxon's actual ROI) doesn't mean that I am making 7% on my investments.

Thanks for the advice though!

 

Know what - that's exactly what we all need - some eye-opening stuff.

Your input is welcome - as always. So is anyone else's. I am as open-minded as humanly possible, and I can certainly learn something from anyone willing to bring a rational discussion to the table. All I ask for is some details, facts, and logic to get me started.

If people really want to know what has been going on for the last 110 years - or 110 days - all we have to do is dig for it and find out. Nobody can predict the future, but we can certainly draw some educated guesses based on recent history, trends, and the tid-bits we have at our disposal.

 

Basic free market economic principles and supply and demand will put the price where it needs to be. You ask a very good question there at the end, which is always entertaining to turn around. Why shouldn't big oil companies make great profit margins?

I would argue they shouldn't make those kinds of profits because they sell a product we must have. We can cut back our use, but in the end, we must have it. That is, until there are viable, mainstream alternatives. However, only when big oil starts price gouging to the effect of 20+% profits should we even talk about windfall taxes. A windfall tax on a 7% profit is ludicrous!!!! Absolutely ludicrous and makes all who support it just as ludicrous!!!

The blind, conspiracy theory, never satisfied, always complaining, fanatical type is better?

I think I'm fine with who I am. You mentioned being an engineer earlier, so am I (Masters in ME). Funny we think so differently.

KMP is a good company. A sure 7% is never a bad thing. DSX may be another good one for you at 12% and they have raised their dividend the last 10 quarters. Look at FRO also.


In the end, I guess we will agree to disagree.

Personally though, I have no problem with Exxon Mobil making a healthy 10-15% annual return.

 

I told myself I was done with this thread, basically because it was going nowhere and was getting a bit too fanatical for me, but I had to chime in and agree. The politicos who are pushing a windfall profit tax are looking at the wrong number -- they are seeing billions returned but not looking at the billions invested. "Record profit" makes for a great headline, especially when you ignore everything that goes into that number.

I have yet to see any logical argument that explains how a profit tax will help stimulate the economy. Stimulate the government's coffers, sure. But it does not address the fundamental supply/demand equation, therefore surely doing nothing to drop the price of oil.

 

I think maybe some of you should probably take the debate to e-mail before it gets ugly.

 

Both you guys are still looking at a single tree in this picture - not the forrest.

I would be the first person to jump up and say that I would have no problem whatsoever with any oil company making 15 or 20% - IF their source of profit was not putting such a burden on the entire remainder of the US economy. Honest to gosh I would... I swear it.

Guys, there IS a bigger picture here. The entire US economy is (or at least should be) more important than the profit margins of one industry - much less 5 companies whose combined income surpases the GDP of any single european country!

How can you blindly defend an industry's profit margins based on a single number - without considering all of the other ramifications that the making of that profit requires? In this particular business case, you are saying "it's OK to sacrifice the many for the betterment of the few", because everyone deserves to make 7% or more on their investment.
I'm trying to say "the few (wealthy ***** at that) should take a little less and sacrifice some for the many", so that we all may go on to more prosperous days.

Is it really that hard to understand?

I have based my position on this from the very beginning, and I still think that we - as a nation - should be looking at what is best for the entire economy, not just one company or one industry. As long as the oil companies keep making record profits while independent businesspeople and industrial companies are struggling to survive due to fuel costs and fuel-related policy, I will continue to feel that the greedy bastages in that industry are legally "stealing" profits from the rest of the economic base because they have a monopolistic hold on it, and they have no conscience about the ramifications of their actions because it actually is serving another purpose besides making some wealthy people grossly wealthier.

 

I will say that I do not feel personally attcked or offended by anyone in this thread . I also don't want to offend anyone else either. There's no name-calling or belligerancy at all, and I appreciate everyone's passion for the topic.

One thing for sure - it's affecting everyone in the USA - if not the world.
As I mentioned earlier - we just replanned our next 3 months' production of tier-1 parts around this very subject where I work. I was flabbergasted when our management accepted that the prices of gas at the pumps has impacted our business from every side... globally and also across all business groups... medical, industrial, automotive, transportation - everything.

These guys are pretty classy I think. A little debate gets us all thinking.