It's Official - Exxon Hits Record Profits for Any Corporation Ever
08-09-2008, 09:42 AM
#46
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You can only drill a well if you own the water rights on your land. And even if you do own the water rights, out in the west you'll be lucky to find water unless you own more land than your typical .2 acre lot.
08-09-2008, 03:24 PM
#47
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Location: Michigan's left coast
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Short version - a contract exists between the US and Saudi-Arabia since 1974 in which we buy oil from them, they put some of the money back into the US via the NY Federal Reserve (which supposedly directs it towards national debt reduction), and in return, we cover their *** with military security. It's not "under the table" as you suggested in your response - it's fully legitimate, signed by officials from each government... it's just not "highly public or well-advertized".
http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt
Note that "oil-producing countries" only hold $165B of US Treasury securities - that's less than half of what is owned by China or Japan, and less than a 1/10th of the total held by foreign countries.
Now, if there's some sort of under-the-table trading going on that involves trillions of dollars, then things get very interesting. Given the massive complexity of the Treasury, I suspect that there are ways to bury such amounts of money, because the average person (or even someone trained in the art) would never have the time to dig through everything.
One more thing... a caveat in the contract.
If we EVER begin to supply ourselves with oil over a set percentage (i.e. drilling offshore in the Atlantic or Pacific, drilling in Prudhoe Bay, the north shore, etc), the contracts with these oil-producing nations becomes null and void - MEANING they can accept any form af currency, fromanyone, anywhere, anytime, and they can stop making the payments to the Federal Reserve. THAT'S F'ing HUGE folks. That means that right now, in our deepest debt ever ($9-trillion), the BIGGEST payers of that debt will get to stop paying.
NOW, do you understand why George and Dick don't want us to start drilling offshore or in Alaska?
NOW do you understand why we literally can't afford to provide ourselves with our own oil?
If we EVER begin to supply ourselves with oil over a set percentage (i.e. drilling offshore in the Atlantic or Pacific, drilling in Prudhoe Bay, the north shore, etc), the contracts with these oil-producing nations becomes null and void - MEANING they can accept any form af currency, fromanyone, anywhere, anytime, and they can stop making the payments to the Federal Reserve. THAT'S F'ing HUGE folks. That means that right now, in our deepest debt ever ($9-trillion), the BIGGEST payers of that debt will get to stop paying.
NOW, do you understand why George and Dick don't want us to start drilling offshore or in Alaska?
NOW do you understand why we literally can't afford to provide ourselves with our own oil?
If we do this another day or two, we wil end up with a totally new view of how the price of oil at the pump today is actually a piece of a bigger plan - it's a form of "taxation" intended to get the wealthy, develped nations to "finance" a bigger plan. 
A BAD plan IMO.
A BAD plan IMO.
That being said, I'm also a sucker for a good conspiracy theory (hey, I came-of-age politically in the 90s), and who knows what I can be talked into
08-09-2008, 03:34 PM
#48
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As you can see, the price can increase without the cost increasing if demand increases. Profit is made by best exploiting the different between cost and price.
08-09-2008, 05:03 PM
#49
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dont like it, elect someone who will do something about it.
08-09-2008, 07:30 PM
#51
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Interesting topic. I might as well chime in too.
As far as oil people controlling the world's wealth. I don't think so. It's bankers who control the wealth. It takes a heck of a lot of manpower, science, machinery and risk to get oil from the ground to the pump. By comparison it takes a computer and some electricicity to give a loan to somebody. Oil is getting harder to find and harder to get out year after year. While we laugh when Bush Jr goes to Saudi Arabia to ask them to increase oil output to lower cost, we also chuckle at the absurdity that during Bush Sr's presidential term, he went to Saudi Arabia and asked them to REDUCE oil output. Oil was too cheap 20-25 years ago for North American companies to make money at it.
The $50 in gasoline you put in your tank took a lot of work to get there. The $50 in combined credit card interest that people can and do pay a month is very easy to create. The sheer fact that banks can give you a loan without having the money in the vault or the gold to back up the money, which then you have to pay back with interest is something we take for granted. It's sickening.
I will admit that high oil prices have a hurting effect both macro and micro. The trucker, the gas station who pays exponentially higher credit card fees for all the gas purchases (that they don't make much profit on in the first place), the airlines, as well as factories and buildings that use electricity generated from natural gas (which is tied for the most part to the price of oil). There are the winners when it comes to high oil prices. Hybrid sales, wind mill companies, and rail makes a killing on high gas prices. Their hauling capacity vs fuel prices are a drop in the bucket compared to trucking. And rail cars don't have ever increasing traffic jams, toll costs that the truckers have.
Exxon gets a lot of the blame for spending too much money on their shareholders. Spending more to buy back stock than they do on exploration for new oil. However, Exxon is a cheap stock that benefits everybody from the millionaire right down to the guy making $12/hr and putting money into a 401k. Exxon has a market cap of 408 billion dollars. Microsoft and GE in comparison have market caps of 256 and 294 billion respectively. Berkshire Hathaway is 179 billion.
So yes, Exxon is a huge company. But their stock only trades at 9 times earnings. Microsoft, GE, Berkshire (A) all trade for 13-15 times their earnings. So it's actually cheaper than all of them. Exxon pays a measly 2% dividend, but it costs them 18% of their profit to pay that dividend. Here's the question. How many people own oil company stocks? How many people own a mutual fund or index fund with an oil company? Or a natural resources type mutual fund? Tons of people. Rich and poor. Even if you just buy a the basic S&P 500 index, well Exxon is part of that index.
Now as far as the Federal Reserve goes. It's as much their fault as anybody's for devaluing the dollar so much during the last century. Printing more money to pay off the US debt. Making it so that money is worthless and thus more expensive to purchase foreign oil with. But that all gets back to banking again.
Even if there is a contract stating that the US can't make more than xx% of it's own oil, the fact is the US creates such a small percentage of the oil it consumes, that it would be nearly impossible to drill that much out of the ground and ocean. Besides, that oil wouldn't be used solely by Americans. It would just be sold back into the world market at market rates. It costs more for a tank of gasoline in Northern Alberta than it does in California. It costs more for gasoline in Houston than it does in northern US cities. Depending on how much oil the US could drill off shore, it might make a small impact on the world market. But probably not as much as what Saudi, Canada, and Venezuala do or don't do in the future. Believe me, I lived in Canada for decades and many people questioned why we couldn't pay less for fuel in Canada than Americans did who were importing it from us. But it was just the simple fact of Americans were willing to pay xx for it, so Canadians would have to pay that much or more to get the oil. So it definitely frustrates me when Joe Redneck says we just need to drill for oil so we don't have to use foreign oil....Not that simple. Chances are the Chinese would buy up the oil that the US makes.
As far as oil people controlling the world's wealth. I don't think so. It's bankers who control the wealth. It takes a heck of a lot of manpower, science, machinery and risk to get oil from the ground to the pump. By comparison it takes a computer and some electricicity to give a loan to somebody. Oil is getting harder to find and harder to get out year after year. While we laugh when Bush Jr goes to Saudi Arabia to ask them to increase oil output to lower cost, we also chuckle at the absurdity that during Bush Sr's presidential term, he went to Saudi Arabia and asked them to REDUCE oil output. Oil was too cheap 20-25 years ago for North American companies to make money at it.
The $50 in gasoline you put in your tank took a lot of work to get there. The $50 in combined credit card interest that people can and do pay a month is very easy to create. The sheer fact that banks can give you a loan without having the money in the vault or the gold to back up the money, which then you have to pay back with interest is something we take for granted. It's sickening.
I will admit that high oil prices have a hurting effect both macro and micro. The trucker, the gas station who pays exponentially higher credit card fees for all the gas purchases (that they don't make much profit on in the first place), the airlines, as well as factories and buildings that use electricity generated from natural gas (which is tied for the most part to the price of oil). There are the winners when it comes to high oil prices. Hybrid sales, wind mill companies, and rail makes a killing on high gas prices. Their hauling capacity vs fuel prices are a drop in the bucket compared to trucking. And rail cars don't have ever increasing traffic jams, toll costs that the truckers have.
Exxon gets a lot of the blame for spending too much money on their shareholders. Spending more to buy back stock than they do on exploration for new oil. However, Exxon is a cheap stock that benefits everybody from the millionaire right down to the guy making $12/hr and putting money into a 401k. Exxon has a market cap of 408 billion dollars. Microsoft and GE in comparison have market caps of 256 and 294 billion respectively. Berkshire Hathaway is 179 billion.
So yes, Exxon is a huge company. But their stock only trades at 9 times earnings. Microsoft, GE, Berkshire (A) all trade for 13-15 times their earnings. So it's actually cheaper than all of them. Exxon pays a measly 2% dividend, but it costs them 18% of their profit to pay that dividend. Here's the question. How many people own oil company stocks? How many people own a mutual fund or index fund with an oil company? Or a natural resources type mutual fund? Tons of people. Rich and poor. Even if you just buy a the basic S&P 500 index, well Exxon is part of that index.
Now as far as the Federal Reserve goes. It's as much their fault as anybody's for devaluing the dollar so much during the last century. Printing more money to pay off the US debt. Making it so that money is worthless and thus more expensive to purchase foreign oil with. But that all gets back to banking again.
Even if there is a contract stating that the US can't make more than xx% of it's own oil, the fact is the US creates such a small percentage of the oil it consumes, that it would be nearly impossible to drill that much out of the ground and ocean. Besides, that oil wouldn't be used solely by Americans. It would just be sold back into the world market at market rates. It costs more for a tank of gasoline in Northern Alberta than it does in California. It costs more for gasoline in Houston than it does in northern US cities. Depending on how much oil the US could drill off shore, it might make a small impact on the world market. But probably not as much as what Saudi, Canada, and Venezuala do or don't do in the future. Believe me, I lived in Canada for decades and many people questioned why we couldn't pay less for fuel in Canada than Americans did who were importing it from us. But it was just the simple fact of Americans were willing to pay xx for it, so Canadians would have to pay that much or more to get the oil. So it definitely frustrates me when Joe Redneck says we just need to drill for oil so we don't have to use foreign oil....Not that simple. Chances are the Chinese would buy up the oil that the US makes.
08-09-2008, 09:38 PM
#52
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
That, sir, is the very definition of supply and demand. The store buys apples for a certain price - that's is the store's cost. The market (you) places a particular value on the apples - that's the price.
As you can see, the price can increase without the cost increasing if demand increases. Profit is made by best exploiting the different between cost and price.
As you can see, the price can increase without the cost increasing if demand increases. Profit is made by best exploiting the different between cost and price.
As a customer, I have the power to avoid the two competitors altogether. Thus I can influence the demand. However, not so with oil as I state the bleeding obvious.
08-11-2008, 11:57 AM
#53
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So you think they are 2 separate entities? They could not be one-in-the same?
"May 1973, at a Bilderberg meeting at Saltsjoebaden, Sweden, a group of 84 of the world’s leading financial and political representatives discussed how to manage the coming flow of OPEC petroleum revenues, in advance of their plans to bring about the Oil Crisis.[15] ...
Present at the 1973 meeting were leading lights of the oil industry, and London and New York banking, including Sir Eric Roll, George Ball, David Rockefeller. Also included were Robert O. Anderson of Atlantic Richfield Oil Co., former head of Arco, an oil company affiliated with Exxon; Lord Greenhill, chairman of British Petroleum; Zbigniew Brzezinski, soon Carter’s national security advisor; Gianni Agnelli of Italy’s Fiat, and Otto Wolff von Amerongen of Germany, director of Exxon and Trilateralist.
Also present at the meeting was Henry Kissinger. According to Antelman, in To Eliminate the Opiate, German-born Kissinger is a Frankist.[18] Kissinger was appointed Assistant for National Security Affairs by Richard Nixon, and served as Secretary of State under both Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter. Kissinger is also reputed to belong to the CFR, the Royal Institute for International Affairs and the Trilateral Commission."
There now. You have the government, the bankers, and the oil people all in one tidy room together to determine the future of oil trading and financial routing. Neat, huh?
What's even better is when you have 1 man serving 2 or even 3 main roles... say the President of the largest bank AND the president of one of the biggest oil companies... like David Rockefeller, Chairman of the board of the C.F.R. whose economic base is the giant Chase Manhattan Bank and Standard Oil, or a man who is chiarman of the World Bank and also Secretary of State like Robert McNamara. Other notables in clude Baron Edmund de Rothschild, Sir Eric Roll of S.G. Warburg and Co., Ltd and director of the Bank of England, Pierce Paul Schweitzer of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), and George Ball of Lehman Bothers investment bank, past director of SOCAL, as well as member of the CFR.
If you want to learn them all on your own - search for "Bilderberg Group" or "Bilderberg Meetings".
It takes a heck of a lot of manpower, science, machinery and risk to get oil from the ground to the pump. By comparison it takes a computer and some electricicity to give a loan to somebody. Oil is getting harder to find and harder to get out year after year. While we laugh when Bush Jr goes to Saudi Arabia to ask them to increase oil output to lower cost, we also chuckle at the absurdity that during Bush Sr's presidential term, he went to Saudi Arabia and asked them to REDUCE oil output. Oil was too cheap 20-25 years ago for North American companies to make money at it.
As for the price to get oil out of the ground...
"Rising oil sales and more efficient drilling, combined with record oil prices, led San Antonio-based driller Exploration Co. to higher operating profit in the third quarter, the company said Friday.
Exploration is becoming more efficient, McPherson said. "They're drilling wells better, faster and at lower cost. Their cost to get oil out of the ground has come down from $8 or $9 a barrel to $6 or $7. That goes right to the bottom line."
And yes, I'll even hand you the link to this one... Oil Driller Exploration Co. Profit Rises on Cost-Cutting, Record Revenue
Don't be too hard on the folks in the oil industry...
The $50 in gasoline you put in your tank took a lot of work to get there. The $50 in combined credit card interest that people can and do pay a month is very easy to create. The sheer fact that banks can give you a loan without having the money in the vault or the gold to back up the money, which then you have to pay back with interest is something we take for granted. It's sickening.
The financial part of the equation is spot-on. You and I are being fleeced from every direction... credit cards, mortgages, and prices at the register/pumps. That is a whole separate leg of a bigger plan that is working perfectly for those running the plan. I agree 100% that banks are foundationless entities - they no longer have to have "assets" to base their monetary worth upon (like gold or land holdings). This goes directly into the "farce" that is the Federal Reserve System, FDIC, and US monetary policy. We could have a whole new thread on THAT subject - so let's drop that one already.
Back to the work to get $50 worth of gas to your car - you'd be DUMBFOUNDED if you knew just how automated and "simple" it really was. There's no Chinese kid on a bicycle pedaling two five-gallon pails of crude to the local refinery, where 100 more are manually churning the tar like butter.
You can search Google or Yahoo on refining and transport and probably find 10,000 pie charts that show the cost associated with "processing" and "transportation" of the finished product as a fraction of it's price.
Here's just one for you...
"According to the U.S. Department of Energy, here's an approximation of where each dollar you spend on gas goes:
Taxes: 11 cents
Distribution and Marketing: 6 cents
Refining: 10 cents
Crude oil: 73 cents"
Sort of makes you wonder how it only costs about $6/barrel to get crude out out of the ground, but it is 73% of the cost of the final product, huh?
PART 2 cont'd below...
08-11-2008, 11:58 AM
#54
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Part 2...
Trust me - it helps the billionaires and millionaires more than it helps the guy making $12/hr. The guy making $12/hr can't even keep his tank filled - much less put lots of money into stocks at market value. The guys in the glass house get stock options and don't even pay par for the millions of shares they get, then turn around and sell it at market value making million$.
THAT IS THE PLAN. They WANT our dollar to go down.
They are international - they could care less about our economy, they will be doing well on the 3rd world nations that are growing at our expense. Remember, Fed-Res is a privately-controlled entity that is NOT associated or regulated by our government. The Fed is into world finance, not "US" finance.
Actually, there are proven and tested reserves on the North Slope and Prudhoe Bay that are estimated to be the largest reserves known - even larger than those in Saudi Arabia. They were discovered by Atlantic-Ritchfield back in the 90's, tested, and secured, then "hidden". You can google that too.
The rest of your last paragraph is spot-on... Why does gas in Houston TX cost MORE than gas in Providence, RI? Because the prices are NOT driven by supply, demand, or markets... they are SET by powerful entities that want everyone to be impacted. Think of it as "equal opportunity fleecing".
I will admit that high oil prices have a hurting effect both macro and micro. The trucker, the gas station who pays exponentially higher credit card fees for all the gas purchases (that they don't make much profit on in the first place), the airlines, as well as factories and buildings that use electricity generated from natural gas (which is tied for the most part to the price of oil). There are the winners when it comes to high oil prices. Hybrid sales, wind mill companies, and rail makes a killing on high gas prices. Their hauling capacity vs fuel prices are a drop in the bucket compared to trucking. And rail cars don't have ever increasing traffic jams, toll costs that the truckers have.
Exxon gets a lot of the blame for spending too much money on their shareholders. Spending more to buy back stock than they do on exploration for new oil. However, Exxon is a cheap stock that benefits everybody from the millionaire right down to the guy making $12/hr and putting money into a 401k. Exxon has a market cap of 408 billion dollars. Microsoft and GE in comparison have market caps of 256 and 294 billion respectively. Berkshire Hathaway is 179 billion.
So yes, Exxon is a huge company. But their stock only trades at 9 times earnings. Microsoft, GE, Berkshire (A) all trade for 13-15 times their earnings. So it's actually cheaper than all of them. Exxon pays a measly 2% dividend, but it costs them 18% of their profit to pay that dividend. Here's the question. How many people own oil company stocks? How many people own a mutual fund or index fund with an oil company? Or a natural resources type mutual fund? Tons of people. Rich and poor. Even if you just buy a the basic S&P 500 index, well Exxon is part of that index.
Exxon gets a lot of the blame for spending too much money on their shareholders. Spending more to buy back stock than they do on exploration for new oil. However, Exxon is a cheap stock that benefits everybody from the millionaire right down to the guy making $12/hr and putting money into a 401k. Exxon has a market cap of 408 billion dollars. Microsoft and GE in comparison have market caps of 256 and 294 billion respectively. Berkshire Hathaway is 179 billion.
So yes, Exxon is a huge company. But their stock only trades at 9 times earnings. Microsoft, GE, Berkshire (A) all trade for 13-15 times their earnings. So it's actually cheaper than all of them. Exxon pays a measly 2% dividend, but it costs them 18% of their profit to pay that dividend. Here's the question. How many people own oil company stocks? How many people own a mutual fund or index fund with an oil company? Or a natural resources type mutual fund? Tons of people. Rich and poor. Even if you just buy a the basic S&P 500 index, well Exxon is part of that index.
Now as far as the Federal Reserve goes. It's as much their fault as anybody's for devaluing the dollar so much during the last century. Printing more money to pay off the US debt. Making it so that money is worthless and thus more expensive to purchase foreign oil with. But that all gets back to banking again.
They are international - they could care less about our economy, they will be doing well on the 3rd world nations that are growing at our expense. Remember, Fed-Res is a privately-controlled entity that is NOT associated or regulated by our government. The Fed is into world finance, not "US" finance.
Even if there is a contract stating that the US can't make more than xx% of it's own oil, the fact is the US creates such a small percentage of the oil it consumes, that it would be nearly impossible to drill that much out of the ground and ocean. Besides, that oil wouldn't be used solely by Americans. It would just be sold back into the world market at market rates. It costs more for a tank of gasoline in Northern Alberta than it does in California. It costs more for gasoline in Houston than it does in northern US cities. Depending on how much oil the US could drill off shore, it might make a small impact on the world market. But probably not as much as what Saudi, Canada, and Venezuala do or don't do in the future. Believe me, I lived in Canada for decades and many people questioned why we couldn't pay less for fuel in Canada than Americans did who were importing it from us. But it was just the simple fact of Americans were willing to pay xx for it, so Canadians would have to pay that much or more to get the oil. So it definitely frustrates me when Joe Redneck says we just need to drill for oil so we don't have to use foreign oil....Not that simple. Chances are the Chinese would buy up the oil that the US makes.
The rest of your last paragraph is spot-on... Why does gas in Houston TX cost MORE than gas in Providence, RI? Because the prices are NOT driven by supply, demand, or markets... they are SET by powerful entities that want everyone to be impacted. Think of it as "equal opportunity fleecing".
08-11-2008, 12:55 PM
#55
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Yadkinville, NC USA
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Let's give up on the well argument.
Wow, who are they supporting? C'mon you are smarter then this.
1) Thousands of Sub-Contractors
2) Steel Companies
3) Industrial Hydraulic Companies (pumps/valves/cylinders/etc...)
4) It would take a whole page here listing all of the companies they support.
I work for a small filter company and on drilling rigs we do hundreds of thousand of dollars a year ( IN FILTER ELEMENTS ALONE!!!).
To say they aren't a major player in our economy is to just be blind...
The amount of steel consumed by oil companies is miniscule. Fully 1/3 of the world's steel is being consumed by China in building of infrastructure. Nearly 1/4 more is used in construction of transportation and construction equipment (ships, cars, trucks, loaders, etc) around the world. Throw in the buildings and construction in the rest of the world (USA, Brittain, Germany, Russia, etc) and you have essentially consumed the market. If you are thinking oil wells take lots of steel, you better look at a new building in China.
(BTW, I made Fiberglass that goes into the PVC pipe they use to pump oil from offshore platforms to holding tanks or refineries on-shore. They actually buy more plastic pipe than they do steel for piping of many products... seems fiberglass and plastic are not conductive (as in lightning rods), nor do they make as many sparks when banged around with hammers and such.)
Sub-Contractors? Just how big do you think this "industry" is in the US?
I'll wager you that we have more soldiers providing security for oil fields than there are people working in the oil fields and industry themselves - all contractors included.
Hydraulic companies?!?! C'mon buddy... there's more hydraulic components used in manufacturing industry than in oil alone. Sure it's definitely a piece of the pie, but it's not their bread and butter. Every airplane, loader, excavator, even every car on the road has hydraulics in it - not to mention production plants, hydraulic presses, brake presses, etc. By volume, I doubt the oil industry does much more business than a few large utility commissions that put water systems into cities like New York, Chicago, LA, etc. Let's talk water collection, treatment, distribution, and sewage reclaim. Then throw in fire hydrants, emergency water, etc. Now where's all the valves, pumps, meters, etc?
I'll hand it to you - you are right that it would take a whole page to list the companies and industries they support. You are right.
How many pages would it take to list the industries, companies, individuals, and markets they have HURT in the last 3 years?
How many landscaping businesses have folded?
How many delivery couriers have folded?
How many independent truckers are left?
How many HVAC companies?
How many employees have been let go at Ford, GM, and Chrysler because of higher gas prices (directly or indirectly)?
How many tier-1 companies have gone under or filed bankruptcy?
How many price increases in grocery stores, department stores, etc?
How many people are trying to decide whether to put gas in their car to work a few more days, or to pay a mortgage or even buy food for their family?
Think about the ones oil supports you say?!?!
Sometimes the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many, I guess?
Personally, I'd rather see all of the folks at the table eating a fair and adequate meal, as opposed to the fat-f*****s eating all the meat and taters and leaving bones and skins for the rest of us to pick over.
Call me kooky.
Wow, who are they supporting? C'mon you are smarter then this.
1) Thousands of Sub-Contractors
2) Steel Companies
3) Industrial Hydraulic Companies (pumps/valves/cylinders/etc...)
4) It would take a whole page here listing all of the companies they support.
I work for a small filter company and on drilling rigs we do hundreds of thousand of dollars a year ( IN FILTER ELEMENTS ALONE!!!).
To say they aren't a major player in our economy is to just be blind...
(BTW, I made Fiberglass that goes into the PVC pipe they use to pump oil from offshore platforms to holding tanks or refineries on-shore. They actually buy more plastic pipe than they do steel for piping of many products... seems fiberglass and plastic are not conductive (as in lightning rods), nor do they make as many sparks when banged around with hammers and such.
)Sub-Contractors? Just how big do you think this "industry" is in the US?
I'll wager you that we have more soldiers providing security for oil fields than there are people working in the oil fields and industry themselves - all contractors included.
Hydraulic companies?!?! C'mon buddy... there's more hydraulic components used in manufacturing industry than in oil alone. Sure it's definitely a piece of the pie, but it's not their bread and butter. Every airplane, loader, excavator, even every car on the road has hydraulics in it - not to mention production plants, hydraulic presses, brake presses, etc. By volume, I doubt the oil industry does much more business than a few large utility commissions that put water systems into cities like New York, Chicago, LA, etc. Let's talk water collection, treatment, distribution, and sewage reclaim. Then throw in fire hydrants, emergency water, etc. Now where's all the valves, pumps, meters, etc?
I'll hand it to you - you are right that it would take a whole page to list the companies and industries they support. You are right.
How many pages would it take to list the industries, companies, individuals, and markets they have HURT in the last 3 years?
How many landscaping businesses have folded?
How many delivery couriers have folded?
How many independent truckers are left?
How many HVAC companies?
How many employees have been let go at Ford, GM, and Chrysler because of higher gas prices (directly or indirectly)?
How many tier-1 companies have gone under or filed bankruptcy?
How many price increases in grocery stores, department stores, etc?
How many people are trying to decide whether to put gas in their car to work a few more days, or to pay a mortgage or even buy food for their family?
Think about the ones oil supports you say?!?!
Sometimes the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many, I guess?
Personally, I'd rather see all of the folks at the table eating a fair and adequate meal, as opposed to the fat-f*****s eating all the meat and taters and leaving bones and skins for the rest of us to pick over.
Call me kooky.
08-11-2008, 04:28 PM
#56
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Yadkinville, NC USA
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Originally Posted by Eric Bryant
I'm still of the belief that oil prices are set on the open market - and I'm still of the belief that oil still represents a good value. And if our federal government is looking to extract money from our wallets, send it overseas, and then get in back in the form of Treasury security purchases - well, that process seems to be alive and well in the form of free market mechanisms, and obviously a lot of that action is now occurring in markets other than oil.
That being said, I'm also a sucker for a good conspiracy theory (hey, I came-of-age politically in the 90s), and who knows what I can be talked into
That being said, I'm also a sucker for a good conspiracy theory (hey, I came-of-age politically in the 90s), and who knows what I can be talked into
I have more respect for you now than before, and I have always respected you on this board.
I used to feel bad about even considering "conspiracy theories".
I am actually a very positive person. However, as I age, I also get more atuned to the human animal and how we behave. Throughout documented history, humans have proven to be power-hungry, greedy, and calculating creatures, waging war on each other in attemps to obtain power, money, or both. All you have to do is watch the nightly news tonight, and you will see another case or two of it today. Embezzlement, manipulation, etc abounds in our businessworld. ...and that is sad.
Life has made me realize that there are a few people in every populous that are driven beyond good sense and practicality... driven towards power and money... and they can never get enough of either.
I noticed that you opted not to respond to the questions in that last post.
I will respectfully not drudge them out and hammer on them, but at this time I would like to point out that there are indeed people (and families) in the world that have wealth that far exceed anything we can comprehend. The crap that People magazine puts out is glitz and glam - stuff that the truely wealthy don't want, and see to it that they are excluded from.
The two questions about wealth and ties to oil are particularly acute right now.
Are there wealthy families - moreso than Bill Gates?
Indeed - far more so. The tough thing today is that wealth is spread throughout the families, and wealth - per se - can be in so many forms. Surely the families that have it try to keep it hidden, safe, and secure, by "investing it" or converting it into various entities - no different than we peasants do with our stocks, bonds, savings accounts, retirement accounts, old cars, guns, knives, etc.
To be sure, the most wealthy are dominated by royalty, oil, and transportation, with oil at the top of the heap.
Below are shown some of the wealthiest individuals, shown with their current net worth, adjusted by World GDP. Bear in mind, the wealth of their families likely exceeds their individual considerably, as seen by the combined wealth of William Henry Vanderbuilt (#4) and Cornelius Vanderbuilt (#10).
1. Name: John D. Rockefeller
Age at Highest Earnings: 77
Age at Death: 97 (died May 23, 1937)
Net Worth: 318.3 Billion $USD[2]
Original Net Worth: US$1 Billion (September 29 1916)[3]
US$900.0 Million (1913-eve of WWI) [4][5]
Origin: United States
Main Source of Wealth: Standard Oil
Other Achievements: First Billionaire (Globally-USD)[6] and The Rockefeller Foundation (Created:1913)[7]
3.Name: Tsar Nicholas II of Russia (Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov)
Age at Highest Earnings: 50
Age at Death: 50 (died July 17, 1918)
Net Worth: 253.5 Billion $USD
Original Net Worth: 1.3 Billion $USD (1916)
Origin: Empire of Russia
Company: Monarchy - the Caesar (Emperor) and Autocrat of the Russian Empire (from the House of Romanov).
4. Name: William Henry Vanderbilt
Age at Highest Earnings: 64
Age at Death: 64 (died December 8, 1885)
Net Worth: 231.6 Billion $USD
Original Net Worth: 194 Million $USD (1885)
Origin: United States
Company: Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad and other numerous train companies.
5. Name: Osman Ali Khan, Asaf Jah VII
Age at Highest Earnings: 50
Age at Death: 80 (died February 24, 1967)
Net Worth: 210.8 Billion $USD
Original Net Worth: 1.4 Billion $USD (1937)
Origin: Hyderabad, India
Company: Monarchy - Nizam of Hyderabad
6. Name: Andrew W. Mellon
Age at Highest Earnings: 80
Age at Death: 82 (died August 27, 1937)
Net Worth: 188.8 Billion $USD
Original Net Worth: 1.0 Billion $USD (1935)
Origin: United States
Company: Gulf Oil and other various Oil companies.
7. Name: Henry Ford
Age at Highest Earnings: 57
Age at Death: 83 (died April 7, 1947)
Net Worth: 188.1 Billion $USD
Original Net Worth: 1.0 Billion $USD (1920)
Origin: United States
Company: Ford Motor Company
10.Name: Cornelius Vanderbilt
Age at Highest Earnings: 82
Age at Death: 82 (died January 4, 1877)
Net Worth: ▬ 167.4 Billion $USD
Original Net Worth: 100 Million $USD (1877)
Origin: United States
Company: New York and Harlem Railroad, and other shipping companies.
Interesting facts...
"Standard Oil, which made John D. Rockefeller the richest person in the history of mankind, is still the largest company in the form of ExxonMobil, both by revenue as well as market-capitalization (as of 2008). "
"Bill Gates ranks as the 20th richest person (individual) in the history of the world, both modern and ancient, as of 2008."
This should again - "get us thinking".
Obviously, I am making all this stuff up, right.
I pulled all this stuff right out my sphincter.
Maybe tomorrow or Wednesday I will breach a little deeper into the marriage between oil and the world's elite. If you are really into conspiracy theory, you will already know where the story goes. Maybe you have heard the theories, but never had anyone actually provide details, facts, figures, and motives for the theories. There's more to it than one might think.
08-12-2008, 04:54 AM
#57
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
ProudPony
If ever you were considering leading your country (and I happened to reside there ) there is no doubt you will get my vote. 
The way you handle the naysayers is with the utmost respect and dignity, backed up with conclusive counter-arguments. It's a credit to your character, your values and integrity.
Eric
You say you came of age politically in the 90s... well even though I'm quite cynical these days and question just about everything, I'm still very naive in that regard. My biggest downfall would be that I'm too open and too honest - I do wear my heart on my sleeve... yet it's these same traits I'm trying to pass onto my kids. Too honest? Go figure.
But politics is an art in deceit as much as anything... with the primary objective being to do what's best for oneself! Be open-minded, I say, and never develop the sheep mentality (not that you would).
Cheers
Thus said the man who's lost more friends than he's gained.
If ever you were considering leading your country (and I happened to reside there
) there is no doubt you will get my vote. The way you handle the naysayers is with the utmost respect and dignity, backed up with conclusive counter-arguments. It's a credit to your character, your values and integrity.
Eric
You say you came of age politically in the 90s... well even though I'm quite cynical these days and question just about everything, I'm still very naive in that regard. My biggest downfall would be that I'm too open and too honest - I do wear my heart on my sleeve... yet it's these same traits I'm trying to pass onto my kids. Too honest? Go figure.
But politics is an art in deceit as much as anything... with the primary objective being to do what's best for oneself! Be open-minded, I say, and never develop the sheep mentality (not that you would).
Cheers
Thus said the man who's lost more friends than he's gained.
08-12-2008, 01:12 PM
#58
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Sterling Heights, MI
Posts: 6,166
Furthermore, if you do not impose a "losses" cap at the same time, you're going to hurt business even more. What if GM turns it around suddenly and substantially? Well, they'd be capped by your theoretical $1B/year profit ceiling, meaning it would take 18 years of great business to recover from last quarter. Unless the profit cap doesn't pertain to all companies, in which case you are simply discriminating against businesses you don't like.
If you feel oil company profits should be capped at $1B/year, that means that on Exxon-Mobil's 2nd Quarter pace, the Government would skim $43.2 Billion off every year. So what's the difference if business "fleeces" the people or the government fleeces business? The simple fact of the matter is that this is a lynch-mob mentality.
I think that WSJ article posted earlier in this thread covers things eloquently. If we give Government free reign to take whatever they choose from business to keep tabs on it, who then will keep tabs on Government?
Last edited by Z28Wilson; 08-12-2008 at 01:30 PM.
08-12-2008, 06:39 PM
#60
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
It's much easier to blow $18B than to make it. Consider the Iraqi war as a prime example. If it sounds like a non-popular attack on 'your' federal govt, then consider blowing $18B at the Casino... then try making the money back.