If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
Originally Posted by Last of a Breed
Wait a minute, if Pontiac and GM want the new GTO to be on the same platform as Camaro, what's the difference in that compared to having Firebird on the Camaro platform? Isn't it going to be the same thing as when Firebird and Camaro were F-body twins? Now instead of Firebird and Camaro being built on the same platform, it will now be GTO and Camaro? 
Where's the business case for that, wouldn't it pretty be much the same as for Firebird?
Now I know GTO is more upscale, and by staying with GTO instead of Firebird might be able to shed some of Pontiac's "boy racer" image, but come on. I just don't see the difference. Anyone care to enlighten me?
Where's the business case for that, wouldn't it pretty be much the same as for Firebird?Now I know GTO is more upscale, and by staying with GTO instead of Firebird might be able to shed some of Pontiac's "boy racer" image, but come on. I just don't see the difference. Anyone care to enlighten me?
Options?
1. Hop on with Chevy's big sedan program and make a big coupe off the chassis.
2. Abandon plans to make a big coupe, and create a derivitive of the Camaro & call it GTO.
3. Use the planned Zeta GTO design to restyle the Monaro version, and ship either the car or the machinary here.
As for the boy racer image, you're right. It seems Pontiac is moving away from that BMW "image"..... see the 70s inspired fender heat extractors on the new Grand Prix GXP?
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Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 426
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
If the GTO shares a platform with Camaro, we will have our Firebird. A rose by any other name...
What if they called it "GTA"? Now there's some food for thought! The 3rd gen GTA was an upscale f-body, might be a nice fit???
What if they called it "GTA"? Now there's some food for thought! The 3rd gen GTA was an upscale f-body, might be a nice fit???
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,011
From: Exton, Pennsylvania
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
Originally Posted by guionM
As for the boy racer image, you're right. It seems Pontiac is moving away from that BMW "image"..... see the 70s inspired fender heat extractors on the new Grand Prix GXP?
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 417
From: Malden, Ma
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
Originally Posted by TA76
If the GTO shares a platform with Camaro, we will have our Firebird. A rose by any other name...
What if they called it "GTA"? Now there's some food for thought! The 3rd gen GTA was an upscale f-body, might be a nice fit???
What if they called it "GTA"? Now there's some food for thought! The 3rd gen GTA was an upscale f-body, might be a nice fit???
But GTA could do.
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Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 426
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
Well it doesn't have to have GTO styling ques. It could be a brand new design. If the Camaro is going to have a retro theme it might make sense to go the opposite direction with the Poncho version. I think the current GTO formula would work but with a more agressive style. IRS, top notch interior, 400+ hp with unique colors. As much as I hate to say it, but in the place of t-tops have a sunroof.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 417
From: Malden, Ma
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
I'm with TA76 on this. By not having the Firebird name, Pontiac doesn't have to worry about any negative images that the name carries (if any). And by not going with GTO, it allows Pontiac to avoid the whole retro/evolution debate that plagued GTO from the beginning ie, purists complaining it wasn't a GTO.
With the GTA name, it'll have some history with the Firebird, but allow a new nameplate for a new platform. To me it makes sense, although I can't comprehend how Firebird was ballyhooed against for being a sister twin for the 5th Gen (people saying it would jeapordize Camaro, and what would its business case be), yet GM might end up doing it anyways.
With the GTA name, it'll have some history with the Firebird, but allow a new nameplate for a new platform. To me it makes sense, although I can't comprehend how Firebird was ballyhooed against for being a sister twin for the 5th Gen (people saying it would jeapordize Camaro, and what would its business case be), yet GM might end up doing it anyways.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,011
From: Exton, Pennsylvania
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
Originally Posted by Last of a Breed
I'm with TA76 on this. By not having the Firebird name, Pontiac doesn't have to worry about any negative images that the name carries (if any). And by not going with GTO, it allows Pontiac to avoid the whole retro/evolution debate that plagued GTO from the beginning ie, purists complaining it wasn't a GTO.
With the GTA name, it'll have some history with the Firebird, but allow a new nameplate for a new platform. To me it makes sense, although I can't comprehend how Firebird was ballyhooed against for being a sister twin for the 5th Gen (people saying it would jeapordize Camaro, and what would its business case be), yet GM might end up doing it anyways.
With the GTA name, it'll have some history with the Firebird, but allow a new nameplate for a new platform. To me it makes sense, although I can't comprehend how Firebird was ballyhooed against for being a sister twin for the 5th Gen (people saying it would jeapordize Camaro, and what would its business case be), yet GM might end up doing it anyways.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 417
From: Malden, Ma
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
Originally Posted by RussStang
I would much rather just have a Firebird back. When I think of Pontiac and aggressive, I think of cars like the Firebird, not the GTO. GTA is too confusing, especially with all of this GT, GTP, GXP nonsense.
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,255
From: new jersey
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
Originally Posted by Last of a Breed
I can't comprehend how Firebird was ballyhooed against for being a sister twin for the 5th Gen (people saying it would jeapordize Camaro, and what would its business case be
think of the 4th gens. the Firebird ate up ALOT of the F-body budget. as far as the business case, GM wants to (or at least saying the are) get away from model overlap. basing the next gen GTO on a modified Sigma-lite chassis would help spread the cost of the chassis but allow GM to differentiate the models by making it longer, wider, different styling , and different price range/target buyer.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 417
From: Malden, Ma
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
Originally Posted by turbo96z28
think of the 4th gens. the Firebird ate up ALOT of the F-body budget. as far as the business case, GM wants to (or at least saying the are) get away from model overlap. basing the next gen GTO on a modified Sigma-lite chassis would help spread the cost of the chassis but allow GM to differentiate the models by making it longer, wider, different styling , and different price range/target buyer.
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,255
From: new jersey
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
Originally Posted by Last of a Breed
Ok, that makes sense. But why not just call it Firebird? I know GTO has its history and recognized nameplate, but wouldn't Firebird have more cache considering its 35 year run? GTO was for '64-'74, and Firebird '67-'02. Granted, I do have my bias, but Firebird would make a little bit more sense to me. Plus, Firebird carried that Pontiac excitment and attitude, and it would be a shame to not have it do so again.
i like 'Birds, had a cherry red one with t-tops. i just wouldn't hold my breath to see one soon. maybe, just maybe, if the Camaro is a runaway hit, we could see a Firebird 2 years after or so, but i think with the GTO and Solstice, the Firebirds comeback looks somewhat grim.
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
Bob Lutz is a *****.
He's responsible for every GM car since 1989 looking like an 89 Grand Am.
They should make the new Camaro a coupe (like the 67-69's) and the Firebird a fastback like the 1970-1973's).
He's responsible for every GM car since 1989 looking like an 89 Grand Am.
They should make the new Camaro a coupe (like the 67-69's) and the Firebird a fastback like the 1970-1973's).
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,449
From: Bentonville, AR
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
Originally Posted by GrayStangGTvert
Bob Lutz is a *****.
He's responsible for every GM car since 1989 looking like an 89 Grand Am.
They should make the new Camaro a coupe (like the 67-69's) and the Firebird a fastback like the 1970-1973's).
He's responsible for every GM car since 1989 looking like an 89 Grand Am.
They should make the new Camaro a coupe (like the 67-69's) and the Firebird a fastback like the 1970-1973's).
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 77
From: Ohio
Re: If no GTO, why not a Firebird?
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Sure I'd like to see a new Firebird......but I'd also like to see a case for it that makes some business sense.
The Firebird accounted for 25-30% of the 4th gen F-car, yet devoured the lion's share of the F-car budget. Camaro paid the bills, but Firebird got the money. Look at the '98 refresh, Firebird got two different front and two different rear fascias, new interior, several new wheels. All of the money for those things came out of the Camaro's hide...and probably damaged Camaro's potential sales numbers....if not the Camaro brand itself. GM figures if Camaro is to effectively compete with Mustang - both in sales and profit - it needs to focus it's resources on a Chevy Camaro rather than a Chevy and Pontiac Camaro. Any money spent on a Firebird twin, would most likely canabalize Camaro sales anyway, so really, what would be the point.
That is unless, someone can come up with a Firebird concept with a substantially different draw than Camaro. Something very few people on this site are even willing to consider - so dead the Firebird will likely stay.
The Firebird accounted for 25-30% of the 4th gen F-car, yet devoured the lion's share of the F-car budget. Camaro paid the bills, but Firebird got the money. Look at the '98 refresh, Firebird got two different front and two different rear fascias, new interior, several new wheels. All of the money for those things came out of the Camaro's hide...and probably damaged Camaro's potential sales numbers....if not the Camaro brand itself. GM figures if Camaro is to effectively compete with Mustang - both in sales and profit - it needs to focus it's resources on a Chevy Camaro rather than a Chevy and Pontiac Camaro. Any money spent on a Firebird twin, would most likely canabalize Camaro sales anyway, so really, what would be the point.
That is unless, someone can come up with a Firebird concept with a substantially different draw than Camaro. Something very few people on this site are even willing to consider - so dead the Firebird will likely stay.
GM has had their heads up their asses for many years when it comes to design and sales. Every once in a while they get it right but it's far and few between.