If Camaro is the only Zeta left........
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A Solstice on Y body would make the Solstice much more expensive than it is now. The whole idea of the Solstice is to be an affordable, fun car. Nevermind that GM would have to spend a lot of R&D money to completely re-engineer the car for Y body.
Sure Kappa is somewhat based on Y body and yes, it is true kappa production will probably move to Bowling Green. That must be where you're getting tripped up.
Last edited by Mich84; Jan 18, 2008 at 06:13 PM.
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From: The Golden State
As one of this site's avowed retro haters and overweight car haters, I've said from early on that the F5's lifespan will likely be shorter than most would hope. And this was before 35mpg CAFE and the reality of $3+ gasoline set in. And before the interior was shown. Add in the fact that the Camaro is already yesterday's news to so many people because of its lengthy public gestation, and things aren't looking great IMO. Of course there will be the huge initial demand from the first-on-the-block types and diehard GM performance folks (of which I consider myself one). We had that with the fourth gens too.
But honestly, after a couple years, I don't see what's going to sustain demand. The weight and fuel economy are largely unchangeable at that point. Perhaps a thorough restyle could revive interest assuming the hard points would allow it to look more modern, but that's probably more costly than GM would care to invest. Even with a factory mate, I could see it dying after 5-6 years.
But honestly, after a couple years, I don't see what's going to sustain demand. The weight and fuel economy are largely unchangeable at that point. Perhaps a thorough restyle could revive interest assuming the hard points would allow it to look more modern, but that's probably more costly than GM would care to invest. Even with a factory mate, I could see it dying after 5-6 years.
That being the case, it doesn't seem Camaro NEEDS Impala or a high volume Zeta.... or NEEDS to have that long of a run to recover it's investment.
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From: Sterling Heights, MI
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I don't believe we know much of anything with certainty, about the future viability of the new CAFE standards. They will be under tremendous pressure in a few years, once Americans start seeing the impacts on their daily lives. We haul a lot of stuff in this country... horses, ceramics, ATV's, firewood, and refrigerators, often in pickup trucks and SUV's with thirsty V8's. Forget muscle car and luxury car fans for a minute. Light truck and SUV owners ALONE are going to be raising Cain. I will be surprised if the new law remains unrevised for even 5 years... and totally amazed if it makes it ten before Congress has to respond and ratchet it back.
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I think people are mixing up what is being said here. I think Josh is saying that the Y-body will become smaller/lighter and possibly more versitile and that is what Solstice will move to. Not that the Solstice will move to the current Y-body.
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Neither scenario is true.
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From: Chicagoland IL
We're having a similar discussion on C&G and Future Of GM had a very thought provoking post:
So put this in your pipe and smoke it:
CORPORATE POLITICS 101:
My educated guess is this:
What does Cadillac want to do more than anything? Be taken seriously as a GLOBAL luxury division. What is required to do that? Success in Europe, on the home turf of the big boys. So, if you were Cadillac and the US Government just made Detroit swallow the death pill of CAFE what are you going to do? 1) Continue on with a portfolio planned on larger cars that probably will not advance your cause in Europe or 2) Tap Uncle Bob on the shoulder and say "Hey, you know what? Since Europe and America are roughly the same now, why don't we structure our line ups the same in both countries. Hence, why don't we take the lead on Alpha; smaller cars that will make an impact in Europe. I mean, after all, Cadillac has expressed interest in a smaller product or a long time (Remember the possible Cadillac Kappa when that platform was thought to be more flexible?) Not to mention, these cars will sit nicely beside the new BRX.
And this isn't even factoring in the projected significance of global sales on the GM empire OR the possible huge amount of share that CAFE might cause GMNA to lose.
Now, the only kink is the head of Cadillac (Can't remember his name) saying he doesn't want the division to go smaller than CTS-sized and tht could be reason for hope on a BROADER range of sizes on Alpha.
GM Europe, already smelling the flesh burning from CAFE here, allies with Cadillac (The corporations crown jewel) and voila, they have MAJOR input on future product. All the more because a more successful Cadillac in Europe means a stronger GME as well.
What about Zeta then? What about it? You do like our friend PCS says and sell the platform in Oz and China (Where big cars like that are allowed now, funny, the communists have more freedom of choice than us, lol)
Or you can do like Forster wants and essentially structure Cadillac (Off fo Alpha) to be a serious threat in the US and Europe, then you use Buick (Already the top brand in China) along with Zeta to own the market there. Holden then becomes nothing more than the Vauxhall of Oz and will probably see Zetas and crappy little euro cars. Or Chevrolet will be introduced in addition to Holden OR Chevrolet just replaces Holden (Because THAT would go over well)
As far as GM do Brasil; they see an increase for business for their home room now that CAFE sucks and will fight Holden the whole way with the Crewman and ST (Unless the models are limited to 3-4 years upon which new small trucks can materialize)
My concern lies with Pontiac... More and more it seems like a 4 year old kid LOST in the catacombs of GM, wandering around, just waiting to either be adopted by a loving leader or eaten up by the trolls under the bridge. If indeed Pontiac did lose Alpha, it appears that it would be because Pontiac is the only NA division that does not sell anywhere else (Despite them basically being Holden now, which in itself looks to have reduced significance)
Maybe GMPD should adopt Pontiac as it's official foster child.
CORPORATE POLITICS 101:
My educated guess is this:
What does Cadillac want to do more than anything? Be taken seriously as a GLOBAL luxury division. What is required to do that? Success in Europe, on the home turf of the big boys. So, if you were Cadillac and the US Government just made Detroit swallow the death pill of CAFE what are you going to do? 1) Continue on with a portfolio planned on larger cars that probably will not advance your cause in Europe or 2) Tap Uncle Bob on the shoulder and say "Hey, you know what? Since Europe and America are roughly the same now, why don't we structure our line ups the same in both countries. Hence, why don't we take the lead on Alpha; smaller cars that will make an impact in Europe. I mean, after all, Cadillac has expressed interest in a smaller product or a long time (Remember the possible Cadillac Kappa when that platform was thought to be more flexible?) Not to mention, these cars will sit nicely beside the new BRX.
And this isn't even factoring in the projected significance of global sales on the GM empire OR the possible huge amount of share that CAFE might cause GMNA to lose.
Now, the only kink is the head of Cadillac (Can't remember his name) saying he doesn't want the division to go smaller than CTS-sized and tht could be reason for hope on a BROADER range of sizes on Alpha.
GM Europe, already smelling the flesh burning from CAFE here, allies with Cadillac (The corporations crown jewel) and voila, they have MAJOR input on future product. All the more because a more successful Cadillac in Europe means a stronger GME as well.
What about Zeta then? What about it? You do like our friend PCS says and sell the platform in Oz and China (Where big cars like that are allowed now, funny, the communists have more freedom of choice than us, lol)
Or you can do like Forster wants and essentially structure Cadillac (Off fo Alpha) to be a serious threat in the US and Europe, then you use Buick (Already the top brand in China) along with Zeta to own the market there. Holden then becomes nothing more than the Vauxhall of Oz and will probably see Zetas and crappy little euro cars. Or Chevrolet will be introduced in addition to Holden OR Chevrolet just replaces Holden (Because THAT would go over well)
As far as GM do Brasil; they see an increase for business for their home room now that CAFE sucks and will fight Holden the whole way with the Crewman and ST (Unless the models are limited to 3-4 years upon which new small trucks can materialize)
My concern lies with Pontiac... More and more it seems like a 4 year old kid LOST in the catacombs of GM, wandering around, just waiting to either be adopted by a loving leader or eaten up by the trolls under the bridge. If indeed Pontiac did lose Alpha, it appears that it would be because Pontiac is the only NA division that does not sell anywhere else (Despite them basically being Holden now, which in itself looks to have reduced significance)
Maybe GMPD should adopt Pontiac as it's official foster child.
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From: Chicagoland IL
And taking up a whole line at one of GM's premier plants, which just had millions in flex-line upgrades done, to build four cars, has GOT to be costing some bucks too.