To answer the original question: CAFE increases from 27.5 to 42. This is an increase of 53%. Therefore, if the V8 Camaro now is 25 MPG highway (I know, I am mixing rating methodolgies, but it doesn't matter for this discussion), then it will need to increase to 38.5 MPG highway.

Technologies that could be implemented (MPG improvements are a swag):

DI: 3 MPG
Start/stop (aka mild hybrid): 1 MPG
Electrification of accesories: 2 MPG
Lower rolling resistant tires: 1 MPG
Improved aero: 2 MPG
Improved friction: 1 MPG
Improved gearing: 0.5 MPG
Improved weight: 1 MPG
More aggesive AFM (DOD): 1 MPG
Lean combustion with lean burn cats: 1 MPG

Total = 13.5 MPG increase + 25 MPG original = 38.5 MPG

 

A lot of the things you mention (tires, gearing, leaner A/F mixture) hurt performance, so again, nothing is "free" here. There's no magic bullet that's going to improve efficiency that much without somewhat drastically hurting performance. Not in just 6 years anyway.

 

But then technology evolved. The same thing will happen with the next generation of vehicles. There are companies already working towards that goal.

If you haven't already done so, check out the Discovery Channel 4-part series called "Future Car". There is some really cool stuff happening that isn't that far off.

 

You know the "free market" alternative is no GM at all. No Camaro, no Corvette, it is all gone.

I'd love to have a GM with no government interference and an LS3 in everything. But we can't have it both ways. Either the performance cars we love are gone, or be have LS3 Corvettes and Camaros backed by the US Gov't. That is just the reality of the situation. I'm bitter about the situation too, but GM got them selves into this mess, not Obama.

 

You forgot scenario C. We have no performance cars (or rare, wildly expensive performance cars) at a company backed by the US Gov't. I think this may be the most likely scenario.

 

You mean the profitable cars Well when Gov't Motors wants to sell me a Volt for $20,000 at a large lose I'll buy one and mod it. That or buy a Ford Twin Turbo V6 Ecoboost Mustang.

 

I apologize comrade. Our divine leaders are without flaw. Please do not report my name.


Trust me, I *know* GM got itself into this mess.

But there are better ways to help GM (and the auto industry at large), other than to socialize it, usurp the laws of the land and use any and all crisis to expand government, political power and cronysm.

 

I still think the Corvette, Mustang and probably Camaro live on. Sure they will change quite a bit but I think the draw of sales will be too hard to pass up especially when everyone is driving econoboxes. Chevy and Ford will still need to bring people into the showroom and exciting fun to drive vehicles built for those who want something off the mainstream will always have a place. Smaller C.I.V8's, displacement on demand and DI in a lighter smaller package should get the cars close enough to the CAFE and CO2 numbers that it can be evened out by the bread and butter vehicles.

Like someone said earlier this will be just like the 1970's again. We've got the big HP gas guzzlers now and what's to come will just be marketing shells of these cars. They will be just as chocked down by emissions and untested technology and will be just as anemic as those cars were in the 70's. It will take time for the car companies to figure out how to balance power and MPG through technology. I think the pendulum has just swung back to the left but the game will continue. This isn’t the end of the world.

Although a 2010-2011 Camaro SS just got a lot more attractive yesterday!

 

As one of the "O Team" once said............. "Never let a good crisis go to waste."

They are using the present crisis to further their social engineering. The sad part is, most voters are too stupid, or self absorbed, to see it. (well, or dead, as many of the voters were)

Z28x, honestly, I don't think the current administration really cares if GM ends up profitable or not. As a matter of fact, it is better for them, if they continue to not be. That way, they have an excuse to continue to micromanage them.

Some here like to say "well, at least we will still have GM." I ask.......... really??? Do you honestly think you will like the GM that we will have??? Also, how long are you prepared to pay for it???

Frankly, I think all the manufacturers that sell in the US should say "no thank you, we will take the fines." What would happen at that point???

 

Yeah, yeah... I wish we were not were we are now too. Other than loans that can never be repaid or tariffs on non North American imported cars how do you think they could have helped GM stay alive?

The 2010 Equinox blows thought he 2016 CAFE standard for light trucks of 26mpg. The Lambda SUVs (Acadia, Enclave, Traverse) are already very close, and they are Tahoe sized. And if GM would get that 4.5L diesel out for the 1500 trucks and SUVs then they too would be at around 25mpg (it was supposed to be out for 2010). Chevy Orlando seats 7 and will top the Equinox's 32mpg. If GM wasn't in such financial trouble chances are by 2011 or 2012 they would have beaten Obama's new CAFE standards anyways. Ford is already only 1.3mpg away and Toyota just 0.2mpg away in 2009.

Of course they want a profitable GM. They want an assets not another liability. What does a failed Chevy get them? a lost election that is what.

Based on the Alpha thread, yes I will like the Chevy/Cadillac of the future. Based on the Equinox, Cruze, SRX, LNF, Epsilon II, and direct injection V8's, Yes I like what the future has to offer. The only think that will kill it all is $5+ gas and a continued credit crisis.

 

I try not to politicize things, but it seems that's are hopeless on this issue.

I think that several members of the W team were fond of this one as well. It made it easy to expand presidential power to unprecedented levels and spy on U.S. citizens to maintain our safety. I think Obama is flawed, I don't like many of his ideas, but I think the constant playing him like he's the second coming of satan and taking away our civil liberties while ignoring the obvious flaws of our previous administration pushes things a bit.

Funny that these threads are always about civil liberties and personal freedoms, but it constantly comes up that the average U.S. citizen is likely too stupid to vote. Perhaps the people who disagree with you should just have their voting rights removed?


Yes, I think they care. There's really no other reason to do what they are doing. If the ONLY goal was to make the world a greener place, they should have just let GM and Chrysler fail and flushed every Hummer, Silverado, Suburban, Yukon, Tahoe, and every Hemi V8 down the tubes in December 2008. Then they'd have Ford, who already have the most efficient hybrids of the domestics, and could take care of the F150 via CAFE laws. Would be a lot easier, cheaper, and probably would have had more support from a public who just wanted to let the automakers fail anyway.

I think I'll like a smaller solvent GM over the broken behemoth of the last two decades, yes.


All the already broke automakers would be saddled with hundreds of millions of dollars more we'd have to pay?

 

God, the level of paranoia that some people have just astounds me. According to them what the govt. had to do, just so they could sleep at night, was give the Big 3 10's of billions with no strings attached so that they could keep doing what they were doing (which wasn't working) & do it without increasing the debt load! I sometimes wonder what color the sky is in their world. So yes, I support Citizen Obama's 5 year plan & you're being reported to the KGB.. er, FBI. I apologize for sending you to the gulag.. er Gitmo, for waterboarding.. er, I mean treatment.

 

If you can't see that there is a greater dynamic at play here, than simply,"let's loan GM money so they can restructure", then I don't know what else to tell you.

What I see happening alarms me greatly.


"No strings attached"? Hardly. But we have very sophisticated BK laws in this country which seem to work fairly well. I see no reason to circumvent them.

 

I agree. They should have let Chrysler and GM go bankrupt in the traditional manner and then also let all of the other weak little dominoes fail as well. That way all the pensions could be backed directly by the federal government instead of giving the unions nearly worthless equity in newly created companies, and we could have a much leaner automotive industry which consists of just Toyota with minor players like Hyundai and Honda.

 

Agreed, but that transition took 15 or 20 years. That's why I say, get them now, because in the mean time, we're going to have a bunch of cr*p to drive until they get back up to speed w/ the new tech.