How does Camaro survive in a 42 MPG world?
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
I try to avoid politics..however it is hard when issues like this are so intertwined.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 10,285
From: Albany, NY
GM V8's just keep getting better. I can't wait for the direct injection ones.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 666
From: Stockton, Ca. USA
No way. What is done is not done and instead of coming up with goofy ways to meet these new standards we should be fighting this crap. On the bright side though a lighter Camaro with 400+hp would be cool, but at what cost?
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 666
From: Stockton, Ca. USA
I don't know. I'm trying to find that out along with what each model is rated, not just the company car and truck averages.
spare us your political BS. He is actually a pretty moderate president unless you are only comparing him to the last guy. He drove a 2005 Chrysler 300C before he run for prez. The VP owns a Corvette. These people are not tree huggers but they will put forth a modern energy policy.
I'm sure people bitched about moving away from coal in the early 1900's too though
spare us your political BS. He is actually a pretty moderate president unless you are only comparing him to the last guy. He drove a 2005 Chrysler 300C before he run for prez. The VP owns a Corvette. These people are not tree huggers but they will put forth a modern energy policy. I'm sure people bitched about moving away from coal in the early 1900's too though
Just look at California for your answer and its very ugly here.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,802
From: Annapolis MD
Anyway
39 MPG average for cars
30 MPG average for light trucks...
Only this idiotiotic administration would compare todays trucks with todays capabilities, saddled with impact standards against the light tiny gocart like Model T and say Fuel economy has not improved in US trucks. How much fuel and time would it take to haul comperable loads to a job site in an 2009 F150 vs a Model T
To answer your question Charlie Im not sure how. Maybe a KTM X-BOW like car with a V8 or a Dune buggy like Full Roll cage protected V8 powered car maybe if it can save the weight with fiberglass panels like a race car light?
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,647
From: At car shows and cruise nights!
hookem and formula79 summed it up, this is not good for America. This is just another way to control what we get and are able to buy from this USSA socialist government. The car industry is in so much trouble already, why make it worse? We need cars we actually want to buy at a good price, not econo-boremobiles. This environmentalism obsession must stop for our own good.
I wonder though, if it will even affect cars like the Camaro and the Corvette as long as everything else in the company is real good on gas. 42MPG might be dreaming though.
I wonder though, if it will even affect cars like the Camaro and the Corvette as long as everything else in the company is real good on gas. 42MPG might be dreaming though.
West South Central Moderator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,371
From: Kilgore TX 75662
My personal take on the issue:
1) throw away the old 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio. Install forged pistons in all cars, and run them lean as hell at all times, unless they are at high throttle settings, where damaging detonation might occur.
2)Beef up the electrical system. Make the car battery able to support an electric AC compressor, radio, wipers, headlights, elec pwr steering pump, etc.... AND be able run the starter motor without interrupting said electrical subsystems.
3)Have the engine automatically shut down whenever the car comes to a complete stop for more than 3 seconds. AC, radio, wipers, etc, would keep running normally as if the engine was still running. If you press the gas pedal, the starter motor quickly engages, and snaps the engine back to life. No unecessary idling. ever.
4)Install auxillary electricallyoperated oil pump. This will run when the engine stops with the key in "run", to prevent unecessary wear n' tear from constantly starting/stopping engine.
5)if the car is coasting, with the gas pedal up, the injectors should shut off.
Basically, the engine should only be running with the gas pedal depressed. All engine driven/belt driven accessories should be electrically driven, except the alternator.
Just running the damn engine less would greatly decrease fuel use and emissions, and idle is a waste of fuel.
Leaning out the engine would help alot too.
1) throw away the old 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio. Install forged pistons in all cars, and run them lean as hell at all times, unless they are at high throttle settings, where damaging detonation might occur.
2)Beef up the electrical system. Make the car battery able to support an electric AC compressor, radio, wipers, headlights, elec pwr steering pump, etc.... AND be able run the starter motor without interrupting said electrical subsystems.
3)Have the engine automatically shut down whenever the car comes to a complete stop for more than 3 seconds. AC, radio, wipers, etc, would keep running normally as if the engine was still running. If you press the gas pedal, the starter motor quickly engages, and snaps the engine back to life. No unecessary idling. ever.
4)Install auxillary electricallyoperated oil pump. This will run when the engine stops with the key in "run", to prevent unecessary wear n' tear from constantly starting/stopping engine.
5)if the car is coasting, with the gas pedal up, the injectors should shut off.
Basically, the engine should only be running with the gas pedal depressed. All engine driven/belt driven accessories should be electrically driven, except the alternator.
Just running the damn engine less would greatly decrease fuel use and emissions, and idle is a waste of fuel.
Leaning out the engine would help alot too.
#4 is interesting, but I would hate to rely on an electric pump for my oiling system...
I'm hoping that diesels become more popular since they combine high torque with very good fuel economy. Yeah, sure they stink up the atmosphere unless you add urine to the mix...
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 10,285
From: Albany, NY
What more can I say, too many people here are so consumed by their personal political bias or their lack of understanding their is a difference between CAFE and EPA. Then there are those that I guess just don't understand what the word AVERAGE means.
People said the same thing back in the 70's about V8 cars. 27.5mpg CAFE will kill V8's, fast forward to today and not only are V8s and performance cars not dead but we have a based V8 Camaro with 426HP that is extremely heavy and yet still is rated one of the highest for any V8 Camaro ever.
If you want performance cars then go out and buy one, strong sales is the only way to keep them alive. As performance fans we should all be excited by cars like the Chevy Cruze, Volt, Escape Hybrid, and Ford Fusion Hybrid. These vehicles blow through the new 2016 CAFE standard and make 500HP V8 coupes a non-issue as long as we keep buying them. By 2016 Ford should be working on its 4th gen hybrid and GM will have plug in hybrids (Equinox, Malibu, Volt, Silverado) that should have HUGE CAFE numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if 30-50% of family sedans and minivans are hybrid by 2016 and this CAFE thing will be such a non-issue. I'll make sure to pull this thread up to bust on the chicken littles.
The only way performance is doomed is if a fuel or currency crisis send gasoline to $6+ and up.
People said the same thing back in the 70's about V8 cars. 27.5mpg CAFE will kill V8's, fast forward to today and not only are V8s and performance cars not dead but we have a based V8 Camaro with 426HP that is extremely heavy and yet still is rated one of the highest for any V8 Camaro ever.
If you want performance cars then go out and buy one, strong sales is the only way to keep them alive. As performance fans we should all be excited by cars like the Chevy Cruze, Volt, Escape Hybrid, and Ford Fusion Hybrid. These vehicles blow through the new 2016 CAFE standard and make 500HP V8 coupes a non-issue as long as we keep buying them. By 2016 Ford should be working on its 4th gen hybrid and GM will have plug in hybrids (Equinox, Malibu, Volt, Silverado) that should have HUGE CAFE numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if 30-50% of family sedans and minivans are hybrid by 2016 and this CAFE thing will be such a non-issue. I'll make sure to pull this thread up to bust on the chicken littles.
The only way performance is doomed is if a fuel or currency crisis send gasoline to $6+ and up.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 10,285
From: Albany, NY
Yet we not only made it from a CAFE standard of 18 to 27.5mpg without losing V8's we got V8's that met CAFE them selves in cars that are heavier and putting out almost twice as much HP as the V8's from that era.
Who to say GM won't have a cam-less 5.0L V8 that can put out 425HP an get 35mpg ten year from now. I just don't get how people think engine and transmission technology will be frozen in time.
Go to a Corvette message board, there are guys there that already get 30mpg+ hwy in their C6. With a lighter C7, AFM and GDI you might see Vette owners pushing high 30's.
Who to say GM won't have a cam-less 5.0L V8 that can put out 425HP an get 35mpg ten year from now. I just don't get how people think engine and transmission technology will be frozen in time.
Go to a Corvette message board, there are guys there that already get 30mpg+ hwy in their C6. With a lighter C7, AFM and GDI you might see Vette owners pushing high 30's.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 681
True. I keep forgetting about those pesky new emissions standards. 
I am not an engineer so I don't know all the keys and tricks to lowering CO2 emissions (maybe we should all conserve our breath ). I would think that if emissions are too stringent and/or are applied to each specific model instead of corporate wide like CAFE, we'd toss the V8 into the garbage. Hooray!
I am not an engineer so I don't know all the keys and tricks to lowering CO2 emissions (maybe we should all conserve our breath
). I would think that if emissions are too stringent and/or are applied to each specific model instead of corporate wide like CAFE, we'd toss the V8 into the garbage. Hooray!That means that the only way to reduce the CO2 output is to increase the fuel economy or to change the fuel used. Note that diesel engines actually contain more carbon per gallon of fuel than gasoline.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,801
From: Nashville, TN
Just my two cents... howdy folks...long time no post...
Anyway, I think this is the END of the Pony cars and V8s in general. It is also the end of large SUVs all together and also likely the end to consumer trucks.
Our entire automotive landscape will be transformed into something you'd see in Europe.
Since C02 emissions are directly proportional to the amount of fuel used (the C02 being emitted comes from the carbon in gasoline), by increasing MPG you effectively reduce C02 emissions. I doubt there's a lot of additional work to be done just to decrease CO2 emissions once you've already gotten to the target MPG.
But nevertheless, to achieve a CAFE of 39, you're looking at having to strip at least 500 if not 1000 lbs off every car you sell. That means anything large is gone, period.
Also gone will be V8s, since they carry such a weight penalty, regardless of how efficient they are. RWD will be gone, again, due to weight.
And really, I am going to go out on a limb and say conventional IC powertrains will be gone except for commercial grade vehicles. EVERYTHING will have to be hybrid to achieve these averages.
The only car that might survive this is the Corvette, strictly because its low volume won't hurt CAFE much. But that's assuming the Government doesn't just force GM to kill it off anyway.
disclaimer...POLITICS ahead....I don't care if it is discouraged, somebody has to say this stuff.
That's my whole problem with this whole God Forsaken deal...what the hell do politicians know about running a car company? My guess is way less than the failed car company executives.
This is just one more notch in the belt of the Obama "end America as we know it" campaign.
In 8 years this nation will be unrecognizeable.
Gone will be family vacations, since you won't be able to buy a car big enough to haul all your crap. I guess you could fly but how long until they ban air travel due to CO2 emissions? Or maybe they'll just make it so expensive that only the wealthy will be able to fly?
That's the other rub about all this Global Warming B.S. Cap & Trade? Carbon credits? Sure, you end up doubling energy costs, which is a drop in the bucket to the rich, so nothing changes for them, but for your average folks you're forced to make a choice between air conditioning and buying groceries. At what point does it become so expensive to get to work that you just quit going?
Now that the California Voters rightly rejected even more budget insanity proposed by the Governator, I wonder how long until Obama bails out the whole state on our dime?
The America I know is being wiped out right before my eyes, and there's nothing I can do about it, and I just want to go throw up.
I will NEVER buy another new GM product as long as one single penny of government money circulates within their coffers. The auto and banking maneuvers the White House has been making smack of Corporatism that would make Moussolini proud.
Anyway, I think this is the END of the Pony cars and V8s in general. It is also the end of large SUVs all together and also likely the end to consumer trucks.
Our entire automotive landscape will be transformed into something you'd see in Europe.
Since C02 emissions are directly proportional to the amount of fuel used (the C02 being emitted comes from the carbon in gasoline), by increasing MPG you effectively reduce C02 emissions. I doubt there's a lot of additional work to be done just to decrease CO2 emissions once you've already gotten to the target MPG.
But nevertheless, to achieve a CAFE of 39, you're looking at having to strip at least 500 if not 1000 lbs off every car you sell. That means anything large is gone, period.
Also gone will be V8s, since they carry such a weight penalty, regardless of how efficient they are. RWD will be gone, again, due to weight.
And really, I am going to go out on a limb and say conventional IC powertrains will be gone except for commercial grade vehicles. EVERYTHING will have to be hybrid to achieve these averages.
The only car that might survive this is the Corvette, strictly because its low volume won't hurt CAFE much. But that's assuming the Government doesn't just force GM to kill it off anyway.
disclaimer...POLITICS ahead....I don't care if it is discouraged, somebody has to say this stuff.
That's my whole problem with this whole God Forsaken deal...what the hell do politicians know about running a car company? My guess is way less than the failed car company executives.
This is just one more notch in the belt of the Obama "end America as we know it" campaign.
In 8 years this nation will be unrecognizeable.
Gone will be family vacations, since you won't be able to buy a car big enough to haul all your crap. I guess you could fly but how long until they ban air travel due to CO2 emissions? Or maybe they'll just make it so expensive that only the wealthy will be able to fly?
That's the other rub about all this Global Warming B.S. Cap & Trade? Carbon credits? Sure, you end up doubling energy costs, which is a drop in the bucket to the rich, so nothing changes for them, but for your average folks you're forced to make a choice between air conditioning and buying groceries. At what point does it become so expensive to get to work that you just quit going?
Now that the California Voters rightly rejected even more budget insanity proposed by the Governator, I wonder how long until Obama bails out the whole state on our dime?
The America I know is being wiped out right before my eyes, and there's nothing I can do about it, and I just want to go throw up.
I will NEVER buy another new GM product as long as one single penny of government money circulates within their coffers. The auto and banking maneuvers the White House has been making smack of Corporatism that would make Moussolini proud.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 681
2)Beef up the electrical system. Make the car battery able to support an electric AC compressor, radio, wipers, headlights, elec pwr steering pump, etc.... AND be able run the starter motor without interrupting said electrical subsystems.
You will save some, since you don't have to run the water pump, PS pump, and AC compressor at engine speed. You can speed them up or slow them down based on demand.
3)Have the engine automatically shut down whenever the car comes to a complete stop for more than 3 seconds. AC, radio, wipers, etc, would keep running normally as if the engine was still running. If you press the gas pedal, the starter motor quickly engages, and snaps the engine back to life. No unecessary idling. ever.
4)Install auxillary electricallyoperated oil pump. This will run when the engine stops with the key in "run", to prevent unecessary wear n' tear from constantly starting/stopping engine.
5)if the car is coasting, with the gas pedal up, the injectors should shut off.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Define "fighting" it. It would be awfully hard to slow the freight train now, unless something drastic happens starting with the 2010 elections....