A local dealer here in Florida bought a GTO M6 to a weekly car show in Fort Lauderdale. I got a chance to look at it up close and sit in it. I really liked it. The "non-negotiable" 8K markup turned me off though. Complaining about the high price of a car while charging a 25% markup is hypocritical.

 

I saw that Car and Driver TV piece that Guion is referring to this weekend. I also saw the Test Drive of the GTO on Speed TV with Tommy Kendall.

After seeing the Car and Driver piece I was dead set on keeping my current 1995 Z-28 Camaro, even though its almost 10-years old, and wait for the next C-car in 2008 or 2009. They really slammed the GTO hard. Then I saw the Test Drive show and how kick in the pants fun the car looked to drive. (at least by professional drivers on a closed course )... that show made want one even more.

Then reality hit... at close to $40K or more with dealer markup???? FO-GIT-ABOUD-IT! At that price, I'd rather get a Corvette. And if I didn't want that price (or can't afford it)... I merely have to wait a few months and get a 2005 Mustang GT for under $30K.

Like Guion and others, I love the car... but I aint paying $40K for lackluster performance.

 

Wait until the more agressive LS2 '05s come out then that $8000 markup on the '04 will turn into an $8000 discount.

 

The GTO is not a flop or failure. It is so funny how F-body enthusiasts are so quick to jump this car. The car has been great marketing wise for Pontiac, but you have to remember a few things that are simply business. If they put at least one GTO in every dealership, that puts a lot of cars in the northern areas who normally don't consider RWD cars. Also I think that dealerships over pricing the car has hurt sales. A customer walks in a dealership and sees a GTO marked at $38K with no explaination, they assume that is the price they are all going for.

Also in relation to Guys post...

I think GM's marketing of the car has been dead on. Most anyone has a mental idea of what the GTO means, and Pontiac does not need to redefine that. What are they supposed to do? Present the GTO as a European style GT Coupe that is comfortable and luxurious, but also is a competent performer? If Pontiac did this, they would have anyone with an idea what GTO is all over their asses. To most of the buying public GTO is Tire Smoke and Muscle car. Car & Driver should get some flack over their article on TV because they generally praised the car in print. John Kerry reporting IMO.

As I am sure Jim will reply to you, dealers are independent businesses and therefore GM is tied as to what they can do.

I do think there are alot of people who would buy a GTO for say $32K.....but would in no way consider $38K.

With this, you have to also understand Pontiac's apprehension to use anything that could be termed "body cladding". For years every Pontiac got ripped in the mags the second there was somthinh that could be remotley called body cladding added to the car. I personally think that the car looks great. When you see it on the road, there is really nothing that looks quite like it. I would like to see some dealer offered packages though. The biggest mistake I see on the car is the single exit exhuast. IMO its a horrible mistake. Almost big enought to make me say I would wait till 05 if I was in the market for one.

That brings me to my last point. The general public is smarter now with the internet and such, therefor I think alot of people are also doing research and realizing that this car will be much changed for the better next year. I wonder how many people are actually holding off due to this.

Also, I think all

 

I say bring on the 0% financing for 60 months with an additional $3000 cash allowance towards the down payment.

 

Guionm gets it right AGAIN.

2 questions.

Why would I buy a compromised over priced GTO with the following 2 choices.

1) An $8K cheaper '05 stang due out in about 5 months that'll outrun it and provide more utility.. aka a trunk.. and look much more muscular and attractive.

2) An equal priced 300C or cheaper Dodge Magnum that'll run door to door with the auto GTO and provide full size luxury and utility.

And these cost savings are sans the stupid dealer markup syndrome. Throw that in and it's a rout.

Guion had it right. The car NEEDS a separator from the crowd. Styling? No way. Utility? Nope not till the new chassis in about 3 years. Price? Not the way to do it.

Performance.

2 scenarios.

If GM knew what the 300C/Magnum and the new stang were bringing to the table, they should have delayed the GTO till '05 and launched with the LS2 alongside the C6.

If they didn't have a clue, then at least the '04 GTO should have had the LS6. The triple team of bland styling, high price, and mediocre performance have seriously wounded the GTO.

The performance envelope has just grown insanely over that last 12-18 months. The '03/'04 Cobra, the Hemi twins, the Mach1, the performance rumors of the '05 stang, the Dodge SRT-4 Neon, the C6, the CTS-V, WRX-Sti, EVO VIII

Playing it conservative and holding "some back" is the BIGGEST risk in these times. DC went ***** out on the Hemi cars and SRT-4 and it's paying off in spades.

 

We really aren't far apart on this, although on the surface it seems that way:



I agree it isn't a failure or a flop, but it's sales are disappointing. But according to the article, dealers are complaining about the car. This is the feedback that's going to get to GM decision makers. The old "fox guarding the hen house" story fits here. If GM is getting their info from the same guys marking the car up by over 25%, then the car's going to be judged a failure, and alot of I told you so's will be circulating from the car should be a FWD applience crowd.


I wouldn't call it John Kerry reporting (I'm libel to vote for him simply because I'm sick of the Bush guys who never served bashing a fellow vetern that did), but Car and Driver TV should be raked over the coals for their story. Especially since they praised the car in print.

I like the GTO as is, and my only issue is the dealers. However, I know I suspect I'm in the minority on this, and it seems that it should be either priced lower, given rebates, or given something to make it stand out (hood scoops?). Since the latter is going to be taken care of soon, they need to addtess the former.

Quote:

As I am sure Jim will reply to you, dealers are independent businesses and therefore GM is tied as to what they can do.

I do think there are alot of people who would buy a GTO for say $32K.....but would in no way consider $38K.

I agree with this completely, but automakers do have ways to ensure dealers don't get out of hand, and Ford has employed this quite a few times, especially with both the Thunderbird and the blown Cobra when it they 1st came out. Just 2 of the more effective and popular ones are:

1. Threaten to retaliate on future high intrest cars. Pontiac has the Solstice coming soon. GM does have the power to make policy that dealers who sell GTO at list price will have priority over dealers that don't, or refuse Solstice deliveries to dealers who gouge on the GTO for the 1st 2-3 months.

2. Lower the dealer's grading. Automakers grade dealers on a wide range of areas, including customer service. Reasonable pricing is sometimes included in this. This grading is used to determin the best dealers, who will then be eligible for bonuses from the manufacturer and again, priority for any new high intrest models that build showroom traffic.

We're in lockstep on this.

You probally are right, but if the car has the same pricing issues next year as this, I doubt it's going to help.

I'd have the current car on order right now if the dealers here or in SoCal were selling at sticker. But because they aren't, I paused long enough that I found out the new Mustang GT will likely outperform it for possibly $7,000 less... and Ford plans to keep it's dealers somewhat under control in pricing.

As someone else said, I want a GTO and I was ready to buy. At $32K, it's at the upper limit of my radar screen, and still a go for me. At $38-40K, it just sours me to the whole thing and looking at other options.

 

A local dealer here never added a mark-up.

As a matter of fact, they were offering an $1,000 rebate a few weeks ago on the cars. Don't know if they still are.

I've seen 2 of them on the street. They do sound sweet.

 

I think its been stated enough, dealers are killing the potential of the GTO horribly. A dealer here in central florida was charging $6k over MSRP for GTO's

Obviously, lack of aggressive styling and a better model forthcoming could have something to do with it, but if dealers kept the prices under control, GTO's would be moving a helluva lot faster. If you have 40k to spend on a car, there are A LOT of options out there, far beyond GTO's and Mustangs, at that price you're looking at BMW and Mercedes territory. I say GM lay a little punishment down on dealers that marked up GTO's so badly. Possibly limit the amt. of Solstice's and top model G6's they are allowed to receive when they first debut?

 

Oddly enough I spoke to Jim today, and SoCal is the hottest GTO areas right now where they don't have enough cars.

 

Hmm...Compared to the Z28/Formula, GM has come up with a car that has:

• Bland Syling
• Worse Fuel Economy
• Several hundred additional pounds
• Similar Performance
• Less Cargo hauling capability
• No T-Tops
• And is $9,000 More Expensive (MSRP)

I can see how sales would be dissapointing, even if you only wanted to sell 18,000.

 

I don't get the dealer mark up thing. If the dealer cannot sell the car for a while, doesn't GM charge them more money for the car if it sits? I know some towns in some states will charge personal property tax if the car sits on the lot past a certain amount of days also. Its supply and demand, and these dealers have to move the GTO's some time.

 

A car becomes a hot seller if it's percieved value is higher than it's out the door price.

I haven't driven a GTO yet...but I've spent some time checking them out. Nice interior, less agressive wheel/tire combo than Monaro, annoying box in trunk. To me ...the GTO's percieved value seems to be around $27,000.

Maybe....just maybe...I might give it a second look, for around $29-$30K. But at around $36-$39K...it is such a ****-poor value in my book, it is just beyond consideration.The under $30K Magnum R/T I drove, seems like such a better value.

The GTO appears to be following the late (like around '01 and'02) 4th gen Camaro SS doctrine....charge excessively up the ying yang....and you're still bound to find afew buyers. The sales numbers will be similar.

 

Let's compare model year for model year, for starters. Why do you insist on saying the 2005 GT will outrun the 2004 GTO? People who know what the 2005 Mustang GT is capable of are probably also aware that the 2005 GTO will get the LS2, so the power argument is a non-issue. The GTO still has virtually the same trunk capacity as the SN95 Stang, but I am not sure what the specs are in that area for the new car.

Quote:

If they didn't have a clue, then at least the '04 GTO should have had the LS6. The triple team of bland styling, high price, and mediocre performance have seriously wounded the GTO.

"Mediocre performance?" Let's calm down here. A well driven GTO on the street compared to the other "Muscle Cars" currently available should not have to apologize to anything short of the blown Cobras.

Here's the thing I find hilarious. Ford guys are all getting up in GM's face about the GTO and GM's lineup in general about how they don't offer something comparable to Chrysler's LX cars....heck there's some GM die hards on this site moaning the same thing. But I think the price and package that Chrysler is offering in the LX vehicles took everyone by surprise. Ford fans, where is your sophisticated full size RWD vehicle that offers as an option a powerful V8 and lots of luxury with a base price of $23,000? Don't give me the Panther cars.

Chrysler raised the bar on ALL of us, so now both companies have to respond. It's that simple.

Anyway, I can't sit here and claim to know all the reasons why the GTO hasn't sold as expected so far, but if you believe Pontiac then it is selling as expected, so far....the bottom line is, if Pontiac is right, the 18,000 copies will sell by the end of the year. I'm going to wait and see.

 

I love the GTO, but I also agree with many of the things here. Its a combo of everything coming together. Dealers heard the words "limited production" and that equals mark up. On top of that, the GTO's looks arent that eye catching, no. Looking at the G35, it doesnt have scoops or anything that really stands out, but when I see one it catches my eye. That also hasnt helped out on sales, and the people that come in and check out the car, see the price, are turned off.
I dont think that most of the people looking to by a GTO are cross-shopping with a Mustang GT. They are aimed at 2 different groups of people.
I dont think tacky hood scoops is going to improve anything. It will do nothing to the car. Other things could be done to the car to enhance its appearance outside of just tagging on some scoops and calling it a day.
I personaly think the GTO is a good 30k car. If I had the money, I would deffinatly get a GTO. I think that the GTO's styling is fine, and that it just needs a few tweeks.
I dont think that it will be a sales flop. I dont think that the performance sucks either. People are running 4th gen numbers.
With more performance on the way, and more body work, we will see if that will help out the GTO's sales next year. I dont think that GM will hit the 18k mark this year, but maybe next year. I think that scoops will destroy this car. The spy shots have shown a horrible look into the future.
And i belive the mustangs trunk is 1cubic ft larger then the GTO's....