GTO news from 2002 POCI convention!
07-14-2002, 07:04 PM
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GTO news from 2002 POCI convention!
Well, I just got back from the 2002 POCI (Pontiac-Oakland Club International) convention in WV. Along with the great selection of classic pontiac eye candy (421 2+2's, royal bobcats, and of course GTO's as far as the eye can see, there was a seminar about the new GTO. As many of you already know my stance on the car, I couldn't miss this one! The pontiac historian, John Sawrak, along with Bob Kraut, the GM director of marketing for Bonneville, Grand Prix, and GTO were discussing the new GTO. I'll highlight the major points that were talked about, which may take several posts....
The design team was given the following criteria in the development of a "successful" GTO.
1) The new GTO must be the FASTEST production GTO EVER produced.
2) The new GTO must be similar in concept to the original in the respect of "affordible" performance
3) The new GTO must offer a similar level of handling performance of the 2002 trans-am.
4) The new GTO must be a GTO in all respects.
NOTES:
1) Performance
-- Sawruk noted that the 1971 GTO 455 HO was the fastest GTO ever produced by the FACTORY according to FACTORY tests, NOT magazine tests. This vehicle ran 0-60 in 6.4 seconds. 1/4 mi 14.2 sec.
-- The new GTO will receive a different camshaft, tuning & exhaust to: 1) Achieve the above criteria 2) Give it a "GTO" type performance [Torquey down low for off-the-line go].
2) Design
-- The new GTO will ABSOLUTELY NOT be a retro design like the Thunderbird. Kraut said that retro vehicles are like fads: here today, gone tomorrow. The design will incorporate current styling themes to integrate it into the rest of the pontiac lineup. [See marketing section for the reasoning behind this].
-- The design mods to the Monaro will be limited to front & rear treatments and minor interior mods.
-- There will be NO hood scoops on the GTO. There is no time to make such modifications and still go through crash testing and certifications necessary for sale in the U.S.
-- The latest design sketch released is NOT the final version of the car.
[[[Continued next post]]]
------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.
[This message has been edited by GOATCRAZY (edited July 14, 2002).]
The design team was given the following criteria in the development of a "successful" GTO.
1) The new GTO must be the FASTEST production GTO EVER produced.
2) The new GTO must be similar in concept to the original in the respect of "affordible" performance
3) The new GTO must offer a similar level of handling performance of the 2002 trans-am.
4) The new GTO must be a GTO in all respects.
NOTES:
1) Performance
-- Sawruk noted that the 1971 GTO 455 HO was the fastest GTO ever produced by the FACTORY according to FACTORY tests, NOT magazine tests. This vehicle ran 0-60 in 6.4 seconds. 1/4 mi 14.2 sec.
-- The new GTO will receive a different camshaft, tuning & exhaust to: 1) Achieve the above criteria 2) Give it a "GTO" type performance [Torquey down low for off-the-line go].
2) Design
-- The new GTO will ABSOLUTELY NOT be a retro design like the Thunderbird. Kraut said that retro vehicles are like fads: here today, gone tomorrow. The design will incorporate current styling themes to integrate it into the rest of the pontiac lineup. [See marketing section for the reasoning behind this].
-- The design mods to the Monaro will be limited to front & rear treatments and minor interior mods.
-- There will be NO hood scoops on the GTO. There is no time to make such modifications and still go through crash testing and certifications necessary for sale in the U.S.
-- The latest design sketch released is NOT the final version of the car.
[[[Continued next post]]]
------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.
[This message has been edited by GOATCRAZY (edited July 14, 2002).]
07-14-2002, 07:20 PM
#2
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Marketing/production:
1) The new GTO will be brought to market in a "hurry up" fashion. Concept to production in less than 16 months!
2) There are NO plans to produce the GTO in America at this time. The comment was "Lets face it, GM is a global company, and Holden is a division of GM that happens to be outside of the U.S."
--Brand strategy: "Pontiac WILL be the PERFORMANCE DIVISION FOR GM" {direct quote from Bob Kraut marketing director}. THUS, all PONTIAC vehicles WILL DELIVER POWER, PERFORMANCE, and driving EXCITEMENT! {another direct quote}.
--Vehicle positioning within pontiac: The GTO will be the "halo" car for pontiac....With the bonneville and grand prix positioned directly below the GTO. As Kraut put it: The GTO will be the car that everyone WANTS, but maybe the Bonneville or Grand Prix might be what people walk out of the dealership with...
3) There are no plans to increase production at this point of time.."If you purchase a GTO, you won't find five just like it on the road, you will be guaranteed EXCLUSIVITY" {direct quote}
4) IMPORTANT: This version of the GTO should be considered a STARTING POINT for the GTO. "Similar to the 1964 vs the 1969 model was LIGHT YEARS ahead in performance and styling in comparision, the BEST GTO is YET TO COME!"
5) The GTO will be offered in a six-speed stick or 4-speed auto. "Your choice of options will be a limited number of colors and that's about it" There will NOT be a long option list on this car to keep manufacturing simple.
[[Continued next post]]
------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.
1) The new GTO will be brought to market in a "hurry up" fashion. Concept to production in less than 16 months!
2) There are NO plans to produce the GTO in America at this time. The comment was "Lets face it, GM is a global company, and Holden is a division of GM that happens to be outside of the U.S."
--Brand strategy: "Pontiac WILL be the PERFORMANCE DIVISION FOR GM" {direct quote from Bob Kraut marketing director}. THUS, all PONTIAC vehicles WILL DELIVER POWER, PERFORMANCE, and driving EXCITEMENT! {another direct quote}.
--Vehicle positioning within pontiac: The GTO will be the "halo" car for pontiac....With the bonneville and grand prix positioned directly below the GTO. As Kraut put it: The GTO will be the car that everyone WANTS, but maybe the Bonneville or Grand Prix might be what people walk out of the dealership with...
3) There are no plans to increase production at this point of time.."If you purchase a GTO, you won't find five just like it on the road, you will be guaranteed EXCLUSIVITY" {direct quote}
4) IMPORTANT: This version of the GTO should be considered a STARTING POINT for the GTO. "Similar to the 1964 vs the 1969 model was LIGHT YEARS ahead in performance and styling in comparision, the BEST GTO is YET TO COME!"
5) The GTO will be offered in a six-speed stick or 4-speed auto. "Your choice of options will be a limited number of colors and that's about it" There will NOT be a long option list on this car to keep manufacturing simple.
[[Continued next post]]
------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.
07-14-2002, 07:39 PM
#3
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Other interesting notes:
1) This will be apparently released in a formal news release, but he kind of let this out of the bag: GM will be putting together a performance group with the task of manufacturing specialty FACTORY vehicles in a similar fashion to Ford and SVT.
2) The Bonneville GX/P and Grand Prix G-8 are vehicles that Kraut is pushing hard to make a reality. Now, the G-8 grand prix would NOT be RWD or AWD, but remain FWD. But he's pushing to have the power output of the supercharged model increased significantly. The same goes for the Bonneville. Both models would share superior handling performance upgrades.
3) Kraut made the statement: Pontiac WILL NOT produce BORING cookie-cutter daily drivers. It WILL deliver PERFORMANCE.
- Note: Kraut could only laugh at a comment one audience member made about removing the Aztek from the lineup, he made NO attempt to defend it.
4) The GTO design team were given several '69 GTO test videos to watch. Each drove a '64 GTO and a 2002 Ram-Air trans-am. Each were given models of classic GTO's to study the styling of the original. All of this was done to introduce the team to what the GTO was all about. John sawruk is currently working with the team, and he is the only engineer still working for GM that worked on the original GTO (he worked on the '67 model)
5) Bob Kraut displayed posts on the GRAND PRIX WEBSITE about the G-8 concept car to show the "public response" to the concept car. So KNOW that GM is WATCHING!!!!!
6) The question was posed about other divisions using this platform for similar use, and the comment was: "That conversation has already been held with the other divisions, and there will be only one use for this vehicle"
Final note:
Both BOB and John said the new GTO will be a GTO in ALL respects. PERIOD.
------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.
1) This will be apparently released in a formal news release, but he kind of let this out of the bag: GM will be putting together a performance group with the task of manufacturing specialty FACTORY vehicles in a similar fashion to Ford and SVT.
2) The Bonneville GX/P and Grand Prix G-8 are vehicles that Kraut is pushing hard to make a reality. Now, the G-8 grand prix would NOT be RWD or AWD, but remain FWD. But he's pushing to have the power output of the supercharged model increased significantly. The same goes for the Bonneville. Both models would share superior handling performance upgrades.
3) Kraut made the statement: Pontiac WILL NOT produce BORING cookie-cutter daily drivers. It WILL deliver PERFORMANCE.
- Note: Kraut could only laugh at a comment one audience member made about removing the Aztek from the lineup, he made NO attempt to defend it.
4) The GTO design team were given several '69 GTO test videos to watch. Each drove a '64 GTO and a 2002 Ram-Air trans-am. Each were given models of classic GTO's to study the styling of the original. All of this was done to introduce the team to what the GTO was all about. John sawruk is currently working with the team, and he is the only engineer still working for GM that worked on the original GTO (he worked on the '67 model)
5) Bob Kraut displayed posts on the GRAND PRIX WEBSITE about the G-8 concept car to show the "public response" to the concept car. So KNOW that GM is WATCHING!!!!!
6) The question was posed about other divisions using this platform for similar use, and the comment was: "That conversation has already been held with the other divisions, and there will be only one use for this vehicle"
Final note:
Both BOB and John said the new GTO will be a GTO in ALL respects. PERIOD.
------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.
07-14-2002, 07:51 PM
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All good news. Sounds like GM put more thought and effort into this project than some are giving them credit for. I really like the idea of uniqueness and exclusitivity. This car is going to kick ***!
07-14-2002, 10:07 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:
........ -- There will be NO hood scoops on the GTO. There is no time to make such modifications and still go through crash testing and certifications necessary for sale in the U.S.
-- The latest design sketch released is NOT the final version of the car.</font>
........ -- There will be NO hood scoops on the GTO. There is no time to make such modifications and still go through crash testing and certifications necessary for sale in the U.S.
-- The latest design sketch released is NOT the final version of the car.</font>
Enough of the arguing, let's get these over here and take a look for ourselves!
Peace
07-14-2002, 10:33 PM
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GOAT, youdaman. Don't make it all right, but explains a few things, huh?
I'm still left wondering who made the decision not to have any visual ties to the old goat? I thought it was interesting that the design team was given videos to watch, a '64 to drive, a new T/A to thrash, and a directive to produce. No feedback from the public at all?
It was cool to hear that they had Sawruk back in the saddle for this iteration. I'd shave my left one to hear his heartfelt POV about this project. If it is all he wanted it to be or if he was restrained. Maybe that's where the "best is yet to come" part plays in... maybe he and the team ARE looking to take public favor into account in the future! :crosses fingers - makes wish:
So how do you feel now about...
"#4)Must resemble the original GTO in every respect."?
And tell the truth! What was the general feeling of the crowd at the show? Most folks eager to get one I bet, espescially with all the "eye candy" to pump up the blood pressure a bit!
Thanks for the report!
PS - Hope you had a good trip!
You got mail at work! Lotsa mail...
[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited July 14, 2002).]
I'm still left wondering who made the decision not to have any visual ties to the old goat? I thought it was interesting that the design team was given videos to watch, a '64 to drive, a new T/A to thrash, and a directive to produce. No feedback from the public at all?
It was cool to hear that they had Sawruk back in the saddle for this iteration. I'd shave my left one to hear his heartfelt POV about this project. If it is all he wanted it to be or if he was restrained. Maybe that's where the "best is yet to come" part plays in... maybe he and the team ARE looking to take public favor into account in the future! :crosses fingers - makes wish:
So how do you feel now about...
"#4)Must resemble the original GTO in every respect."?
And tell the truth! What was the general feeling of the crowd at the show? Most folks eager to get one I bet, espescially with all the "eye candy" to pump up the blood pressure a bit!
Thanks for the report!
PS - Hope you had a good trip!
You got mail at work! Lotsa mail...
[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited July 14, 2002).]
07-15-2002, 01:27 AM
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Must be a GTO in every way?? Then they say it will not look like a GTO and will not have hood scoops?! Pontiac the performance division?? Lets see, theres a name of this certain division that people always use/have used to spell performance, its called CHEVROLET. Theres some good things in this post, but as usual theres still things that don't make sense.
[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 15, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 15, 2002).]
07-15-2002, 12:41 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
It's downright shocking that of all people, you, Goatcrazy, validate what I've been saying for some time and the info I've been putting out , but nonetheless, a very good report! Thanx.</font>
It's downright shocking that of all people, you, Goatcrazy, validate what I've been saying for some time and the info I've been putting out
, but nonetheless, a very good report! Thanx.</font>
Now it's time for opintion
From the seminar, I gathered that GM's intent is to make the GTO kind of like the corvette is to chevy. It will be the "halo" car for the division. It's limited production volume and price [what about the directive of "affordible" performance???] will guarantee exclusivity and unfortunately price gauging by the dealers. This will, in my opinion, not be the car for the common man like the original. Collectors will snap up the 1st 20K cars the 1st year, the wealthy will get the 2nd 20K and put them climate-controlled garages for storage. You might see a few on the street the 3rd year headed for car shows. Etc. Etc...
As far as intent, I can say that I believe that Lutz's heart is in the right place. There appears to be a strong intent to not make the same mistake as the Impala, Nova, Monte and others before it. It's position in the vehicle marketing scheme justifies the styling direction for the vehicle (retro vs integration into the current lineup). I still feel that some styling cues from the "glory days" should be integrated into the vehicle, while still leading the Pontiac lineup in cutting-edge styling that the remainder of the division should follow. [This is the purpose of a halo car: it receives styling updates that the remainder of the cars follow as they come due].
The comments made about this being a stepping stone, and the "best GTO is yet to come" indicate to me that even GM management realizes that they can do a better job with the car, but due to timing constraints, can't really do what they would like to right now.
This re-affirms my beliefs that because GM is in a rush to market this vehicle, they are going to minimize efforts to customize the Monaro. As I posted previously, a front & rear treatment & badges (not EXACTLY, but pretty close) will be all the the GTO will get. The marketing manager stated that the list of options will be SHORT.
The question becomes: does the current market demand such "corner cutting" by GM to rush this vehicle so quickly??? Apparently in GM's mind...
As a side note, I had an opportunity to talk to Jim Wagners, the original marketing director for the GTO...He said "the car will definitely GO, but there are a list of things that he would like to see change about the car:"
1) Incorporate hood scoops
2) Hurst shifter for six-speed, dual-gate automatic for auto cars
3) True dual exaust with agressive tone a must.
4) Torquey, down low performance was a KEY GTO feature. Camming & programming to achieve this is necessary.
5) World-class handling & ride
6) RAM-AIR option
7) Styling cues lended from the 64-72 era.
There were a few others, but I wanted to highlight the main ones....It's kind of funny, but those were the same things that myself and others were asking for.....And those things could EASILY be incorporated with the Monaro if time & money allowed. These also could be incorporated with the current & upcoming styling direction for the division.
So, in conclusion, maybe a totally retro car is not the way to go, (too faddish, not a good long-term candidate for the Pontiac lineup. I do like the fact that GM has a commitment to bring the car back into the permanent lineup. I also like the fact that GM has a level of commitment to make the GTO a real GTO. But, I still am not happy with the fact that it's not (at least at this point) incorporating enough retro cues into the current theme. It also incorporates too many CURRENT styling themes, and not enough future themes like the G-8. BUT, like the marketing MGR stated, this is NOT the final version......
To close, I talked to a couple of GTO guys about this after the seminar, and they both made a similar comment:
"I think the young guys might go for this car, but it's not gonna fly with the older group....." An interesting comment based on the projected market & price for the vehicle....
But only time will tell....
------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.
07-15-2002, 01:57 PM
#14
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GOATCRAZY, when they were talking about the New GTO's interior and exterior you said only small interior changes and limited colors. I take that to mean the GTO won't get all the color combo's the Monaro gets. Is that how you took it to mean.
I think the best part of the Monaro is the interior with REAL thick leathered and truly bolstered seats, like from BMW. Not only that but Monaro's can have blue leather seats to match the exterior, red, yellow etc. As well as body colored guages. If GM is smart they will put a GTO emblem on the dash and leave the rest alone, it may be a Monaro in Austrailia but it would look BMW- Audi here!
------------------
2002 Z28 white/neutral A4 3.23
13.33 @ 104.7 - 650 miles
286rwhp/311rwtq - 1300 miles
STOCK for now!
Gone but not forgotten,
1999 Silver SS 6M #3956
1997 Black Z28 A4 3.23
------------------
Ryan S.
I think the best part of the Monaro is the interior with REAL thick leathered and truly bolstered seats, like from BMW. Not only that but Monaro's can have blue leather seats to match the exterior, red, yellow etc. As well as body colored guages. If GM is smart they will put a GTO emblem on the dash and leave the rest alone, it may be a Monaro in Austrailia but it would look BMW- Audi here!
------------------
2002 Z28 white/neutral A4 3.23
13.33 @ 104.7 - 650 miles
286rwhp/311rwtq - 1300 miles
STOCK for now!
Gone but not forgotten,
1999 Silver SS 6M #3956
1997 Black Z28 A4 3.23
------------------
Ryan S.
07-15-2002, 11:01 PM
#15
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GOATCRAZY:
--Vehicle positioning within pontiac: The GTO will be the "halo" car for pontiac....With the bonneville and grand prix positioned directly below the GTO. As Kraut put it: The GTO will be the car that everyone WANTS, but maybe the Bonneville or Grand Prix might be what people walk out of the dealership with...
</font>
--Vehicle positioning within pontiac: The GTO will be the "halo" car for pontiac....With the bonneville and grand prix positioned directly below the GTO. As Kraut put it: The GTO will be the car that everyone WANTS, but maybe the Bonneville or Grand Prix might be what people walk out of the dealership with...
</font>