Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
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Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
Originally Posted by foxbat
economics 101
Funny, I've never seen a 1 semester hour course on economics. Shouldn't that be 301?
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From: Chicagoland IL
Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
Originally Posted by PacerX
It's not about volume purchasing anymore. If the conditions exist to allow a volume discount, it can be given.
There are a few conditions that allow a volume discount:
1) Common capital equipment. If the added volume increases the rate at which a piece of capital equipment can be paid off, then the buyer of the component can reasonably expect a discount.
2) Common tooling. If the component can be produced off a piece of tooling that is shared across a larger volume of parts, then a discount can be expected there too.
3) Common engineering effort. If the additonal volume of the component in question allows the engineering time and resources expended to be paid off over a larger volume of components with no increase in engineering time and effort, then a discount can be expected there.
4) Less manufacturing down-time due to changing set-ups.
The above four conditions include the benefits seen from a greater utilization of raw materials and other commonalities (common packaging, common sub-supplier components, etc...).
That's it.
You can't get a significant volume discount any other way.
The core of the issues that GM is having with their suppliers is this:
Not only are they all treated like the scum of the Earth for acutally wanting to make money (***GASP!***), but GM won't even do what's in IT'S OWN SELF-INTEREST.
I can pull the trigger RIGHT NOW on a $4 saving per vehicle that will provide not only a less expensive product, but a BETTER ONE TOO. Better performing, longer lasting, ALREADY IN PRODUCTION AT GM, ZERO RISK, lighter and less expensive. Better every stinking way a product engineer, quality person, manufacturing engineer or purchasing agent can think of as better.
No go.
GM's too OVERWORKED/UNDERSTAFFED/LAZY/INEPT/BUREAUCRATIC (take your pick - the end result is the same...) to execute the change.
Everyone at GM admits it's a better product. They all know it's less expensive. They JUST WON'T DO ANYTHING, and the supply base is sick and tired of it.
Meanwhile they've been beating us up for YEARS to give them money back out of one side of their mouths, threatening us with taking our business out of the other, shopping our patented engineering solutions around with the third, and when I'm ready to implement a huge cost savings and a better product, what happens?
NOTHING, and it's 100% GM's fault.
Now, you tell me where I as a supplier should put my resources???
I have a duty to the shareholders of my company (even though I'm not an officer of the company) to make the best decision I can for their investments, and that decision DAILY comes closer and closer to ignoring GM. It's not just the little guys that are thinking that way anymore. The MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR suppliers that are the largest suppliers in a given commodity worldwide are thinking that way now too.
No one in the supply base is expecting to be coddled. This is business. The cold, hard calculus of dollars and cents - and GM's too inept to even look at it that way - money, ripe on the tree, sitting there ready to be plucked and GM is to buffoonish to even do that.
HEY, ANYBODY AT GM LISTENING???? I'VE GOT $4 PER CAR THAT I CAN IMPLEMENT LIKE YESTERDAY AND GET YOU A BETTER PRODUCT ANY WAY YOU CAN MEASURE "BETTER". DO YOU WANT IT????
There are a few conditions that allow a volume discount:
1) Common capital equipment. If the added volume increases the rate at which a piece of capital equipment can be paid off, then the buyer of the component can reasonably expect a discount.
2) Common tooling. If the component can be produced off a piece of tooling that is shared across a larger volume of parts, then a discount can be expected there too.
3) Common engineering effort. If the additonal volume of the component in question allows the engineering time and resources expended to be paid off over a larger volume of components with no increase in engineering time and effort, then a discount can be expected there.
4) Less manufacturing down-time due to changing set-ups.
The above four conditions include the benefits seen from a greater utilization of raw materials and other commonalities (common packaging, common sub-supplier components, etc...).
That's it.
You can't get a significant volume discount any other way.
The core of the issues that GM is having with their suppliers is this:
Not only are they all treated like the scum of the Earth for acutally wanting to make money (***GASP!***), but GM won't even do what's in IT'S OWN SELF-INTEREST.
I can pull the trigger RIGHT NOW on a $4 saving per vehicle that will provide not only a less expensive product, but a BETTER ONE TOO. Better performing, longer lasting, ALREADY IN PRODUCTION AT GM, ZERO RISK, lighter and less expensive. Better every stinking way a product engineer, quality person, manufacturing engineer or purchasing agent can think of as better.
No go.
GM's too OVERWORKED/UNDERSTAFFED/LAZY/INEPT/BUREAUCRATIC (take your pick - the end result is the same...) to execute the change.
Everyone at GM admits it's a better product. They all know it's less expensive. They JUST WON'T DO ANYTHING, and the supply base is sick and tired of it.
Meanwhile they've been beating us up for YEARS to give them money back out of one side of their mouths, threatening us with taking our business out of the other, shopping our patented engineering solutions around with the third, and when I'm ready to implement a huge cost savings and a better product, what happens?
NOTHING, and it's 100% GM's fault.
Now, you tell me where I as a supplier should put my resources???
I have a duty to the shareholders of my company (even though I'm not an officer of the company) to make the best decision I can for their investments, and that decision DAILY comes closer and closer to ignoring GM. It's not just the little guys that are thinking that way anymore. The MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR suppliers that are the largest suppliers in a given commodity worldwide are thinking that way now too.
No one in the supply base is expecting to be coddled. This is business. The cold, hard calculus of dollars and cents - and GM's too inept to even look at it that way - money, ripe on the tree, sitting there ready to be plucked and GM is to buffoonish to even do that.
HEY, ANYBODY AT GM LISTENING???? I'VE GOT $4 PER CAR THAT I CAN IMPLEMENT LIKE YESTERDAY AND GET YOU A BETTER PRODUCT ANY WAY YOU CAN MEASURE "BETTER". DO YOU WANT IT????
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 545
From: Tampa
Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
Originally Posted by BigBlueCruiser
Funny, I've never seen a 1 semester hour course on economics. Shouldn't that be 301?
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Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
economics 101
unions in this country need to be abolished. they are a bloodsucking parasite on american business and industry in the 21st century. granted there was a time when they were essential for protection of workers rights, but those days are long gone.
the costs businesses have to pay for shoddy union labor does not equal out to the price the public will pay for a similar product made by better made non-union goods and services. outsourcing anyone?
loot at eastern airlines and pan am. a huge part of those companies going belly-up was greedy union labor that refused to make concessions. result? company goes out of business and everyone loses their jobs because of greedy unions.
same culture at GM unions....unions want more & more & more and to hell with the overall health of the company, long term security, and keeping jobs in america.
Feel free to look.....
http://www.uaw.org/solidarity/index.cfm
Last edited by 90rocz; Apr 10, 2005 at 09:58 PM.
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Posts: 2,979
Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
Here, let's cut this... sort of... argument short.
Fully loaded, the union shops in this area run at right around $32 per hour for labor (that's wages, benefits, taxes, etc...).
Fully loaded, a Mexican plant I know very well pays $3 for labor. They're union too.
Newflash:
Either go get an education or the economics are going to steamroll you.
Every day the Mexican work force gets more skilled, more technically adept and better trained.
Unions will either start making considerable concessions in health care, retirement and wages or the manufacturing jobs will leave. Period. End of story.
Fully loaded, the union shops in this area run at right around $32 per hour for labor (that's wages, benefits, taxes, etc...).
Fully loaded, a Mexican plant I know very well pays $3 for labor. They're union too.
Newflash:
Either go get an education or the economics are going to steamroll you.
Every day the Mexican work force gets more skilled, more technically adept and better trained.
Unions will either start making considerable concessions in health care, retirement and wages or the manufacturing jobs will leave. Period. End of story.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 545
From: Tampa
Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
Originally Posted by 90rocz
Around here we call this BS!...Ofcourse companies would love to have NO opposition telling them their policies and treatment of employees aren't ethical, it would let their Socialistic ways of running things go smoother. Unions are the ONLY REASON even Toyota workers aren't making Minimum wages.
First the Unions are paid for by Dues from Employees, tho some Union Reps earn wages for their duties.(Mediators between company and employee) I really wish "those days were gone", but the truth is they are in fact returning, as multiple concessions of late have given companies the confidence to regress working conditions and pay and benefits, NATION WIDE.(Were treated WORSE than suppliers.)
BS!...You're trying to say that someone making 1/2 a Union salary will be MORE concerned with quality...Having to deal with "Outsourced" assemblies EVERYDAY, I can tell you first hand, DEFINITELY NO-O-O-O!
I don't know the history of Eastern Airlines, but I would wager it had LITTLE to do with the Union, more to do with Pricing, Aircraft maintainance, Safety Regs, Management etc...Companies ALWAYS want to DO NOTHING until their in financial trouble and blame it on a scapegoat.
BS!...You haven't been doing ANY reasearch, couldn't have or you'd see they have made REPEATED concesions, and salary caps, and are PROUD AS H3LL OF THEIR PRODUCT, and IT'S OUTSOURCING that's taking jobs out of America, by Companies NOT Unions.
Feel free to look.....
http://www.uaw.org/solidarity/index.cfm
First the Unions are paid for by Dues from Employees, tho some Union Reps earn wages for their duties.(Mediators between company and employee) I really wish "those days were gone", but the truth is they are in fact returning, as multiple concessions of late have given companies the confidence to regress working conditions and pay and benefits, NATION WIDE.(Were treated WORSE than suppliers.)
BS!...You're trying to say that someone making 1/2 a Union salary will be MORE concerned with quality...Having to deal with "Outsourced" assemblies EVERYDAY, I can tell you first hand, DEFINITELY NO-O-O-O!
I don't know the history of Eastern Airlines, but I would wager it had LITTLE to do with the Union, more to do with Pricing, Aircraft maintainance, Safety Regs, Management etc...Companies ALWAYS want to DO NOTHING until their in financial trouble and blame it on a scapegoat.
BS!...You haven't been doing ANY reasearch, couldn't have or you'd see they have made REPEATED concesions, and salary caps, and are PROUD AS H3LL OF THEIR PRODUCT, and IT'S OUTSOURCING that's taking jobs out of America, by Companies NOT Unions.
Feel free to look.....
http://www.uaw.org/solidarity/index.cfm
this is great.... of all the sources you reference is one from the UAW!!! that's just great. like i'd give any credibility to those overpaid shop stewards that wrote the article.
here's another clue? wanna know part of the reason we have no camaro and firebird today?? binding agreements GM had with UNION CONTRACTS with canadian auto workers.
i believe pacerx summarized it nicely. nothing more to say here.
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Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
Newflash:
Either go get an education or the economics are going to steamroll you.
Every day the Mexican work force gets more skilled, more technically adept and better trained.
Unions will either start making considerable concessions in health care, retirement and wages or the manufacturing jobs will leave. Period. End of story.
Either go get an education or the economics are going to steamroll you.
Every day the Mexican work force gets more skilled, more technically adept and better trained.
Unions will either start making considerable concessions in health care, retirement and wages or the manufacturing jobs will leave. Period. End of story.
It reminds me of what Chris Rock said about divorce, "if I made 100,000 or so 1/2 ain't so bad, but half of 35,000, well...I'm not movin back in with my moma...somebody's gotta die"..(joke ofcourse) When you don't have much, small concessions can be devistating.
The problem as I see it is, these goofed up trade agreements and deficits.
And sometimes they seem to just go anti-union for spite.
Aerospace outsourcing batters U.S. workers
The battering of U.S. aerospace workers is hitting all levels of the industry — large and small. Of particular concern is the loss of market share to Airbus, a subsidiary of European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS), a consortium of French and German companies, that enjoys government subsidies to stay competitive. Boeing recently lost a contract bid to Airbus that resulted in the American company shutting down its 717 short-haul airliner program.
Enstrom Helicopter Corp., a small company in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula, recently took a hit from another EADS subsidiary.
Eurocopter won a bid to provide 55 single-engine light observation helicopters to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security — a contract Enstrom, where members of UAW Local 2183 work, bid on.
“My honest reaction? It’s about jobs,” said Local 2183 President John Davis. “It’s a lot of money that our government is spending on a foreign product when we’re having a hard enough time keeping jobs in America.”
What really sticks in the workers’ craws is that the Enstrom bid was $23 million less than Eurocopter’s.
Correspondence indicates that DHS found the Enstrom helicopter did not meet specs. But the company says the changes would have been minor, and they were not allowed to address those issues before the bid process continued.
“It goes further, into Boeing, with the Airbus contract,” Davis said. “If something isn’t done, there won’t be any U.S.-built helicopters or anything built in the United States. They’re shutting plants down all around us and people are out of jobs and we could put them to work. We didn’t get a shot.”
The battering of U.S. aerospace workers is hitting all levels of the industry — large and small. Of particular concern is the loss of market share to Airbus, a subsidiary of European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS), a consortium of French and German companies, that enjoys government subsidies to stay competitive. Boeing recently lost a contract bid to Airbus that resulted in the American company shutting down its 717 short-haul airliner program.
Enstrom Helicopter Corp., a small company in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula, recently took a hit from another EADS subsidiary.
Eurocopter won a bid to provide 55 single-engine light observation helicopters to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security — a contract Enstrom, where members of UAW Local 2183 work, bid on.
“My honest reaction? It’s about jobs,” said Local 2183 President John Davis. “It’s a lot of money that our government is spending on a foreign product when we’re having a hard enough time keeping jobs in America.”
What really sticks in the workers’ craws is that the Enstrom bid was $23 million less than Eurocopter’s.
Correspondence indicates that DHS found the Enstrom helicopter did not meet specs. But the company says the changes would have been minor, and they were not allowed to address those issues before the bid process continued.
“It goes further, into Boeing, with the Airbus contract,” Davis said. “If something isn’t done, there won’t be any U.S.-built helicopters or anything built in the United States. They’re shutting plants down all around us and people are out of jobs and we could put them to work. We didn’t get a shot.”
Communication solves conflicts in Lear plant
Nearly two years without a grievance. That’s Richard Neal’s record since he has served as Local 2405 president and chair at the Lear plant in Tampa, Fla.
Some might think this run is evidence of a union representative not doing his job.
But the number actually reveals a deep-thinking union leader finding new ways to use the power of the union to cope with the threats of a global economy.
“Companies compete around price and quality,” says the 49-year-old control technician. “Some of them only look at price. That’s why they cut wages or outsource work. I see my role as helping the company compete on quality.”
Most grievances stem from misunderstanding, he says. Conflicts arise at this maker of sophisticated automotive electronics over how a job gets done or the tolerances that are expected.
“Sometimes the company’s specs are confusing or wrong. That could lead to a problem. My vice president, David Sztroin, and I prefer to solve things on the floor. It’s a lot easier to write a grievance than fix a problem,” Neal says.
When he tried his philosophy in nonunion shops, Neal wasn’t listened to.
“With a union, workers feel freer to make suggestions. As a union representative, I can bring the operations manager down, show him the problem and let the worker who knows the job best show how it can be done better,” Neal says.
Sam Stark
Nearly two years without a grievance. That’s Richard Neal’s record since he has served as Local 2405 president and chair at the Lear plant in Tampa, Fla.
Some might think this run is evidence of a union representative not doing his job.
But the number actually reveals a deep-thinking union leader finding new ways to use the power of the union to cope with the threats of a global economy.
“Companies compete around price and quality,” says the 49-year-old control technician. “Some of them only look at price. That’s why they cut wages or outsource work. I see my role as helping the company compete on quality.”
Most grievances stem from misunderstanding, he says. Conflicts arise at this maker of sophisticated automotive electronics over how a job gets done or the tolerances that are expected.
“Sometimes the company’s specs are confusing or wrong. That could lead to a problem. My vice president, David Sztroin, and I prefer to solve things on the floor. It’s a lot easier to write a grievance than fix a problem,” Neal says.
When he tried his philosophy in nonunion shops, Neal wasn’t listened to.
“With a union, workers feel freer to make suggestions. As a union representative, I can bring the operations manager down, show him the problem and let the worker who knows the job best show how it can be done better,” Neal says.
Sam Stark
Last edited by 90rocz; Apr 11, 2005 at 08:43 PM.
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Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
Well, I'm still trying to figure out what your spiel of typical union propaganda has to do with the price of tea in China, so I'll leave you with this:
Uneducated labor is going to be the first to get the ax since it is so easily replaced.
Uneducated labor is going to be the first to get the ax since it is so easily replaced.
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Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
Well, I'm still trying to figure out what your spiel of typical union propaganda has to do with the price of tea in China, so I'll leave you with this:
Uneducated labor is going to be the first to get the ax since it is so easily replaced.
Uneducated labor is going to be the first to get the ax since it is so easily replaced.
Union Labor IS SKILLED, NOT UNEDUCATED firstly, their are many BA holders in my department from many fields, and we ALL we REQUIRED to take SAT's and dexterity testing prior to employment. Many continuing their education continuously, some courses even sponsored by our company at the local Colleges and Trade Schools. Also many Inovations in the Industry come from the "Floor", by Union employees trying to make jobs easier, increasing quality and saftey! NOT EASILY REPLACED BY CHEAP MIGRANT WORKERS....
If comapnies believe this, it will be to their remorse, and ours.
Last edited by 90rocz; Apr 12, 2005 at 03:35 PM.
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Posts: 2,979
Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
Originally Posted by 90rocz
The first "article"(..funny how it's propaganda when it's not mainstream /corporate...) was to show that even tho a domestic Union company's bid was significantly LOWER, the job was still outsourced...showing their motives go beyond money. The second, that unions are ORGANIZED LABOR, not lawyers for employees, but organize labor efforts to achieve results unorganized cheap labor CANNOT!...
Union Labor IS SKILLED, NOT UNEDUCATED firstly, their are many BA holders in my department from many fields, and we ALL we REQUIRED to take SAT's and dexterity testing prior to employment. Many continuing their education continuously, some courses even sponsored by our company at the local Colleges and Trade Schools. Also many Inovations in the Industry come from the "Floor", by Union employees trying to make jobs easier, increasing quality and saftey! NOT EASILY REPLACED BY CHEAP MIGRANT WORKERS....
If comapnies believe this, it will be to their remorse, and ours.
Union Labor IS SKILLED, NOT UNEDUCATED firstly, their are many BA holders in my department from many fields, and we ALL we REQUIRED to take SAT's and dexterity testing prior to employment. Many continuing their education continuously, some courses even sponsored by our company at the local Colleges and Trade Schools. Also many Inovations in the Industry come from the "Floor", by Union employees trying to make jobs easier, increasing quality and saftey! NOT EASILY REPLACED BY CHEAP MIGRANT WORKERS....
If comapnies believe this, it will be to their remorse, and ours.
Innovation-wise, the guys at Intel and AMD are scared to death of what's going to come off of the shop floor next and wipe them out.
Ok, I see your trade school and raise you...
4 Calculus classes
Differential Equations
Linear Algebra
Matrix Algebra
3 Calculus-based Physics classes
... and 4 more years of engineering courses.
Roadkill. Day is coming. Eat or be eaten.
Disciple
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,479
Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
Staying off topic here ...
I'm not a fan of big business leaders or union bosses ... IMO most are looking out for #1 and are equally willing to send the worker up the river if it benefits them.
That having been said ...
PacerX --what do you propose, other than your offer of saving GM $17 milion a year (and I suspect you're implying there's a lot more money to be saved if they were to put the hammer down and look and listen instead) to save U.S. jobs and the economy? I'm no economist, but your trade deficit keeps setting new records. You're going to have to produce some stuff for yourselves and produce something the rest of the world wants to buy, otherwise you'll implode under your debt load.
I'm not a fan of big business leaders or union bosses ... IMO most are looking out for #1 and are equally willing to send the worker up the river if it benefits them.
That having been said ...
PacerX --what do you propose, other than your offer of saving GM $17 milion a year (and I suspect you're implying there's a lot more money to be saved if they were to put the hammer down and look and listen instead) to save U.S. jobs and the economy? I'm no economist, but your trade deficit keeps setting new records. You're going to have to produce some stuff for yourselves and produce something the rest of the world wants to buy, otherwise you'll implode under your debt load.
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Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
UNSKILLED and UNEDUCATED make up the VAST majority of assembly workers, because if they WERE skilled and educated, they wouldn't be assembly workers. Been there, seen that, got the T-shirt. Been in more plants than you've ever seen.
Innovation-wise, the guys at Intel and AMD are scared to death of what's going to come off of the shop floor next and wipe them out.
Ok, I see your trade school and raise you...
4 Calculus classes
Differential Equations
Linear Algebra
Matrix Algebra
3 Calculus-based Physics classes
... and 4 more years of engineering courses.
Roadkill. Day is coming. Eat or be eaten.
Innovation-wise, the guys at Intel and AMD are scared to death of what's going to come off of the shop floor next and wipe them out.
Ok, I see your trade school and raise you...
4 Calculus classes
Differential Equations
Linear Algebra
Matrix Algebra
3 Calculus-based Physics classes
... and 4 more years of engineering courses.
Roadkill. Day is coming. Eat or be eaten.
(And to lower my bloodpressure. 
) Not everyones goals in life are to be Career Students, in high profile jobs, maybe yours, not mine...but FAR from uneducated..
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 545
From: Tampa
Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
the point is, if american unions weren't so greedy and they produced a quality product at a fair end price for consumers, corporations would not see a need to look elsewhere for cheaper labor. the problem is the UAW and pretty much any other union you can think of demands too much of the employer and does not produce a good or service equal to the price which they command. simple.
get rid of the unions, let the workers earn a fair wage as compared to others of a similar skill set and educational level, and prices for GM labor will drop dramatically. look at the companies right now that have financial problems up the wazoo (GM, FORD, US AIR, DELTA) all unions, and the ones that have failed, (PAN AM, EASTERN AIRLINES etc), see a common denominator?
this will only worsen as unions demand more and more and more.
get rid of the unions, let the workers earn a fair wage as compared to others of a similar skill set and educational level, and prices for GM labor will drop dramatically. look at the companies right now that have financial problems up the wazoo (GM, FORD, US AIR, DELTA) all unions, and the ones that have failed, (PAN AM, EASTERN AIRLINES etc), see a common denominator?
this will only worsen as unions demand more and more and more.
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Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Re: Great article- "AUTOMAKER REACHES TURNING POINT: What will Wagoner do? "
the point is, if american unions weren't so greedy and they produced a quality product at a fair end price for consumers, corporations would not see a need to look elsewhere for cheaper labor. the problem is the UAW and pretty much any other union you can think of demands too much of the employer and does not produce a good or service equal to the price which they command. simple.
get rid of the unions, let the workers earn a fair wage as compared to others of a similar skill set and educational level, and prices for GM labor will drop dramatically. look at the companies right now that have financial problems up the wazoo (GM, FORD, US AIR, DELTA) all unions, and the ones that have failed, (PAN AM, EASTERN AIRLINES etc), see a common denominator?
this will only worsen as unions demand more and more and more
)
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