WERM

Here's the reality check..

Sub 30K performance cars:

Honda Civic Si
Mitsubishi Eclipse (incl. sypder)
Acura RSX
Ford Focus SVT
Ford Mustang GT
Ford Mustang Mach 1
Subaru WRX (sedan and wagon)
Hyundai Tiberon
Mini Cooper S
Toyota Celica
Toyota MR2 Spyder
VW GTI (1.8T/VR6)
VW Beetle 1.8T
Mazda Miata
Mazda Protoge Turbo
Nissan Sentra Spec. V

Some other contenders:

Altima V6 (240 HP)
Accord Coupe V6 (240HP 6Speed)
Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
Buick Regal GS
Jetta VR6 GLI (200HP/6Speed)

On the way soon:

Neon SRT-4
Lancer EVO
350Z
RX8
WRX STi
Focus SVT 5-door
Charger

Many would prefer a Camaro over the above - but given that GM doesn't make one, most people can find something else they like here. Some won't and will cling on to their camaros forever and never buy a new car. Neither is good for GM. That's the reality check. No matter how much GM fools themselves, they got out of the affordable performance business.

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If it breaks, it wasn't high performance enough.

2001 Mustang Bullitt GT
2000 Jetta M5

Z284ever

Just a side note on the SSR.

BTW, the more I see the production version...the more difficult it is, for me, anyway, to feel any excitement about it whatsoever. Mostly due to it watered down looks and proportions compared to the "concept".

But this just in from the October issue of Car&Driver: (some # are est.)

Base price: $38,500

Weight: 4,000 pounds

Horsepower: 290

Torque: 325

0-60: 7.5-7.8 sec

1/4 mile: 16.0 sec

Colors: Yellow, Black, Blue, Corvette Torch Red.

Chevy may decide to quicken it's step with a 4.11:1 rear gear ratio however.

guionM

Seems like the next affordable US made RWD performance car will be from Chrysler & Ford (both due out for the 2005 model year).

Burmite

Jeez that thing is slow!
I thought it would be a bit faster. A 260hp mustang GT can pull a high 14 second quarter, right? That is slower than some of the hopped up econoboxes. RSX Type S, Celica GTS, etc. Many of those cars from the times I read run between a 15.0-15.5.
I hope when the tuning division comes in we many get an SSR and an SSR Type M or something with a 6.0 inside of it.

Z28x

Red Planet or someone at GM, can you give us more info on the HP of the SSR? if you can't give a HP number, how about just telling us if the motor will be the same as the Trailblazer/Rainer 5.3L V8 or a performance tuned version of the 5.3L? I had hoped this truck would do at least LT1 times.

Thanks

MunchE

I drive by a few Chevy dealers every day, and have watched the Camaros disappear. None left. I went to a Pontiac dealer and not a single F-Body, new or used. They had a new GTP tho with the fancy hood scoops.

So that's not a great option. GM called it quits on the performance game.

I saw thing in the new Hot Rod, talking about how Chevy brought the SST truck concept out on the Power Tour. Everyone kept asking if they were making it, and they show the comparo between that and the Silverado SS, saying that it's almost coming out. Except concept to creation, it lost a bunch of HP, and almost all of the styling that made it stand out from the Silverado. Hell, the SS even sits all high still.

C'mon Chevy, it's not that hard...make the Lightning. But Chevy. Not some crappy half assed attempt for once!

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Jason

<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>

<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>

[This message has been edited by MunchE (edited August 31, 2002).]

Vampyr

Have you guys heard about those new mustangs that have the same engines as the Ford Lightning? They are friggin fast. Obviously if Chevy let the Camaro come out in 2003/2004, it would have for the first time in a LONG time been way off the pace of a mustang. Amazing what a turbo (or is it a supercharger?) can do for a car.
Even still.. I will never buy a Ford Mustang again. (except maybe a 1969 Boss 302)

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97Z-28, 2.73gears, LPE CAIK, Magnecore 8.5mm wires, Bosch Platinum +4, Eibach Pro springs, SLP Loudmouth, Kenny Brown SFC & tower strut brace.
(14.6@98MPH 1/4 mile bone stock run)

94z28jbw

That's what I say!
Hell with it, if GM doesn't want to make F-Bodies no more, we'll all just get C5's

I know I'm already looking at them more everyday....


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Check out my new pics @
My Webpage - http://www.z28only.com
Email - 94z28jbw@team.camaroz28.com
1994 Z28 - Black w/ T-tops, 17x9.5 rims, M6

Mods to date:Underdrive Pulleys, Hotchkis Rear Suspension Package, 17 in. BBS Moda Rims, Wings-West Rear Spoiler, Momo Shifter w/ Hurst Short-Throw, Hypertech Power Programing, Bosch Platinum Spark Plugs, 3 in. Flowmaster Exhaust, K&N FIPK Cold-Air Intake, C.A.G.S., Red Grantinelli MAF, Throttle-Body Air Foil.

Z284ever

Yeah, if those numbers end up being correct(C&D got them from GM)...alot of 4 cylinder econo-boxes will be able to suck those retro headlights right out of those computer generated fenders.

.....at least if still looked like the concept.......

Jason E

Hey, take a ride out to Western Massachusetts. Thanks to no one other than myself, I still have 7 Birds in stock after having sold 27 this year. I still have 3 Hawks, 2 T/A convertibles, a T/A coupe and a V6 convertible. For another month or so, Birds still live in my neck of the woods!

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Jason E
'97 30th Anniversary Z28
White with orange stripes, white leather
M6, T-tops, 48k miles...bone stock except for a killer Xtant/Eclipse/Boston Acoustics system

'02 Grand Am GT Coupe
-Black, loaded, 3k miles, hey, at least it has Ram Air!!

The end of the road has finally come...1967-2002

Remember #3...

[This message has been edited by Jason E (edited September 02, 2002).]

redzed

Well said!

BigDarknFast

WERM - While there is no way to tell what will happen when the limited number of this-year-only Mach I's go on the market (I'm inclined to believe there will be little or no dealer markup), the fact remains, the sticker on an A4 Mach I with the upgraded interior is in fact $30,105 according to edmunds.com. I priced one to be like my 2002 Trans Am bought a month ago, sorry it's not my fault the A4 is FREE on the Fbody but $800 on the Mustang. I've been comparing stickers... in case you hadn't noticed... and tossing in references where I know of regarding certain discounts - such as the current $3k cash back on LS1 Fbodies. So you believe you can get a big discount on a Mach I - congratulations and I wish you luck. BTW maybe this is where I should toss in today's nitpick - I would not look forward to keeping the suede leather inserts clean on a Mach I.

Portly Marauder, portly Impala SS... yes they are all portly... and all get equally smoked in stock form by the LS1 FBody.

As for getting Mustang GT's at a discount, I'm not surprised... they need a HP injection.

And all this boo-hooing about not being able to "find any more new FBodies"... pleease. Folks it's a buyer's market now for these things... especially due to season changes (if you live in a four-season climate). I just did a search using gmbuypower.com and found FIFTY Z28's around metro Detroit! Of COURSE, none of them could possibly have an M6... ...it's only fifty cars after all (BTW last week I did a similar search and found about FIFTY Trans Am's around here too, although granted a lot wer WS6). The only LS1 Camaros currently in short supply are the SS's. I know b/c my Chevy dealer did a search for me before I got my 02 TA a month ago.

This stuff about all the fine sport import cars out there - hey that's great if that's what toots somebody's horn. I however would not be caught dead behind the wheel of one... something I imagine to be alarmingly easy to do owing to their welterweight mass. Think about it the next time an Expedition turns left in front of you...

Contrary to what some here believe, only a handful of these new-wave imports offer a serious power/weight ratio; and those that do are virtually all in the vicinity of the newly christened oh-so-critical $30k price point being bantied about in this thread (or higher!). Want that hot new 240-hp Accord V6? $28k. The new Nissan 350Z? A stripper can be had for $26,800 but if you want it loaded like my Trans Am get ready to lay out up around $34k (no discounts... are you kidding?). No one is "abandoning those po' little performance enthusiasts"... performance cars are simply more complex (and capable!) than ever before, and the average price for a good one is going up through $30k. Get over it... and pay to play.

(Note to self: copy the words of these GM-cynicists to a word file, so you can cut and paste them in the future when the GM Performance Division starts cranking out the next wave of hi-po GM cars )

WERM

While there is no way to tell what will happen when the limited number of this-year-only Mach I's go on the market (I'm inclined to believe there will be little or no dealer markup), the fact remains, the sticker on an A4 Mach I with the upgraded interior is in fact $30,105 according to edmunds.com.

Anyone who pays over sticker is a sucker. They are making 6500 of these (and maybe for a second year as well) not including Cobras. Rebates will probably still apply (they did for the Bullitt). Most people got Bullitt Mustangs for well under sticker. A few paid sticker and some got had. If it's too much, you can still get a GT. Ford gives you that option. If your really cheap, you can get an SVT focus. Ford gives you that option. If you want to live large, you can get the Cobra, ford gives you that option... not to mention the other competion.

I priced one to be like my 2002 Trans Am bought a month ago, sorry it's not my fault the A4 is FREE on the Fbody but $800 on the Mustang. I've been comparing stickers... in case you hadn't noticed... and tossing in references where I know of regarding certain discounts - such as the current $3k cash back on LS1 Fbodies.


Nice way to twist the numbers around. You don't get the automatic FREE in the f-body, you have to pay ~~$700 for the manual - same as total price as the automatic - thus it's "Free".

Who cares though. In another month or two, they'll be NO F-BODIES LEFT. Regardless of what you personally think of the alternatives there are only two choices - them or used Camaros. GM gave up on affordable performance. That's the point of this thread.


(Parody to self: copy the words of these GM-flag wavers to a word file, so you can cut and paste them in the future when the GM Performance Badging Division starts cranking out the next wave of hi-po GM cars like FWD automatic only Malibu SS's, Cavalier SS's, Monte Carlo SS's, trucks and vehicles costing over $35,000.)

BigDarknFast

quote from WERM: None of us as far as I know has the market cornered on predicting the future... so we'll just have to wait and see I suppose. However, I take issue with drawing so many parallels between the Mach and the Bullitt... The Mach I has more power, more of a distinctive visual appearance and can be had with an A4. I believe it is more likely to command a premium or at least avoid discounting. How many 2003 Cobras are discounted?

Where sir is your data from? For as long as I can recall, at least since the LS1 came out in 1998, trans choice on an LS1 FBody has been a zero-dollar decision, meaning zero EITHER WAY. Actually, carpoint.com shows the A4 to be standard on an 02 Z28, with the M6 a 0$ (ZERO-$) option. What in the world are you talking about? Check gmbuypower.com too if you like.

IF that is the central theme of this thread, I find it absurd. The tiny smattering of known facts displayed here show only that there WILL BE a smaller number of "affordable" (what exactly does that mean anyway?) performance cars coming from GM soon, for an unknown period into the future. Nothing presented here proves GM has LEFT "affordable performance" - whatever that beautiful and elusive beast is - to the wolves. To the contrary, GM is the one domestic automaker most well-positioned to bring us a traditional muscle car again, due to their strong financial performance.

All this disdain for the GM Performance Division... just more words for my told-you-so file, keep 'em coming! But since you brought up the Monte Carlo SS, here's some real-world data comparing it (actually it's more-or-less twin the Impala) to some of these vaunted sports cars already mentioned (source: 8/02 Motor Trend). I threw in the GTP just for kicks *EVEN THOUGH* it of course CANNOT be a true "performance car"

car -------- HP -- 0-60/quarter, s -- slalom, mph

Impala LS --- 200 -- 7.7/15.9 -- 60.8
Miata ------- 142 -- 7.9/15.9 -- 61.1
Toyota MR2 -- 138 -- 7.2/15.4 -- 62.7
Ford TBird -- 252 -- 7.0/15.3 -- 62.0
Pontiac GTP - 240 -- 6.8/15.1 -- 61.3

Imagine that! A FWD GTP out-slaloms a Miata!

Z284ever

You have convinced me that the new T-Bird is truly a performance car!