GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
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Re: GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
Originally Posted by guionM
Again, I understand what you're saying, and to be perfectly honest, I really don't believe for a moment we'll see a turbo-Ecotec-as-top-power Firebird. But I don't believe we'll see an LSx powered Kappa as a Firebird either.
There are two things that have been said that I feel is worth noting:
1st, there was Bob Lutz saying that "We're not going to do that car" in answering a question about a Camaro based Firebird after saying it was looked at. Why did he feel the need to say "that" car?
It may sound like nothing, but Bob Lutz (like Fbodfather) is very good with "word-dance". When something isn't in the cards, Lutz will say "it's not planned" or, as he said back in 2003: "Firebird's day is over".
The other thing worth noting is an interview Dennis Mooney gave in which he essentially spilled the beans that GM is currently planning a small RWD chassis that will serve as a basis of a sports sedan targeted for 2010 calendar year. Something due out that soon & Holden already campaigning to make this car means it's pretty well along. He mentioned that this car wouldn't have a V8, but rather a (HF) V6, and a structure that targets BMW's 3 series.
Now think about this possibility (and aside of a Kappa based RWD coupe, this is pure speculation):
A small 4 cylinder Solstice coupe.
A midsized (G6 sized) V6 coupe, called Firebird.
A large V8 powered coupe called "GTO"
meanwhile, over at Chevy........
A Camaro that fits in between Pontiac's V6 coupe & GTO, and...
A FWD Cobalt that fits in between the Solstice and Pontiac's V6 coupe.
and finally....
An "Arts & Science" styled, Northstar powered "GTO" luxury coupe for Cadillac.
A drop top, "Velite" styled "GTO" for Buick.
And finally, a "GTO" for Chevrolet.
(Though it may seem like alot of "GTO" coupes, if GM found a way to make each profitable at 12-30K annually depending on price... pretty likely IMO... it would be pretty straightforward to do)
There are two things that have been said that I feel is worth noting:
1st, there was Bob Lutz saying that "We're not going to do that car" in answering a question about a Camaro based Firebird after saying it was looked at. Why did he feel the need to say "that" car?
It may sound like nothing, but Bob Lutz (like Fbodfather) is very good with "word-dance". When something isn't in the cards, Lutz will say "it's not planned" or, as he said back in 2003: "Firebird's day is over".
The other thing worth noting is an interview Dennis Mooney gave in which he essentially spilled the beans that GM is currently planning a small RWD chassis that will serve as a basis of a sports sedan targeted for 2010 calendar year. Something due out that soon & Holden already campaigning to make this car means it's pretty well along. He mentioned that this car wouldn't have a V8, but rather a (HF) V6, and a structure that targets BMW's 3 series.
Now think about this possibility (and aside of a Kappa based RWD coupe, this is pure speculation):
A small 4 cylinder Solstice coupe.
A midsized (G6 sized) V6 coupe, called Firebird.
A large V8 powered coupe called "GTO"
meanwhile, over at Chevy........
A Camaro that fits in between Pontiac's V6 coupe & GTO, and...
A FWD Cobalt that fits in between the Solstice and Pontiac's V6 coupe.
and finally....
An "Arts & Science" styled, Northstar powered "GTO" luxury coupe for Cadillac.
A drop top, "Velite" styled "GTO" for Buick.
And finally, a "GTO" for Chevrolet.
(Though it may seem like alot of "GTO" coupes, if GM found a way to make each profitable at 12-30K annually depending on price... pretty likely IMO... it would be pretty straightforward to do)
I have no issue with a V6 Firebird...especially a nice high tech one. 4 cylinder only would be terrible though.
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From: Mack and Bewick
Re: GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
Originally Posted by Z284ever
I think it has plenty of equity. Certainly more than, oh say, G7.
Originally Posted by guionM
A midsized (G6 sized) V6 coupe, called Firebird.
I was under the impression this kappa based car would be slightly smaller, Charlie also just told us V6 was out? If Cadillacs HO V6 or some variant is a possibility for Camaro why is this different?
And lastly... Thats a lot of GTO...
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From: Hebron, KY
Re: GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
Originally Posted by guionM
Now think about this possibility (and aside of a Kappa based RWD coupe, this is pure speculation):
A small 4 cylinder Solstice coupe.
A midsized (G6 sized) V6 coupe, called Firebird.
A large V8 powered coupe called "GTO"
A small 4 cylinder Solstice coupe.
A midsized (G6 sized) V6 coupe, called Firebird.
A large V8 powered coupe called "GTO"
Originally Posted by guionM
meanwhile, over at Chevy........
A Camaro that fits in between Pontiac's V6 coupe & GTO, and...
A FWD Cobalt that fits in between the Solstice and Pontiac's V6 coupe.
A Camaro that fits in between Pontiac's V6 coupe & GTO, and...
A FWD Cobalt that fits in between the Solstice and Pontiac's V6 coupe.
And Pontiac dealers are still going to want an entry level car offering around $15K. The current G5 Cobalt can't be a longterm solution I hope.
Originally Posted by guionM
and finally....
An "Arts & Science" styled, Northstar powered "GTO" luxury coupe for Cadillac.
A drop top, "Velite" styled "GTO" for Buick.
And finally, a "GTO" for Chevrolet.
(Though it may seem like alot of "GTO" coupes, if GM found a way to make each profitable at 12-30K annually depending on price... pretty likely IMO... it would be pretty straightforward to do)
An "Arts & Science" styled, Northstar powered "GTO" luxury coupe for Cadillac.
A drop top, "Velite" styled "GTO" for Buick.
And finally, a "GTO" for Chevrolet.
(Though it may seem like alot of "GTO" coupes, if GM found a way to make each profitable at 12-30K annually depending on price... pretty likely IMO... it would be pretty straightforward to do)
These seem like valid points to me, even if the cars aren't easily identifiable as having the same underpinnings. Different skin and engine options doesn't go that far, does it?
Last edited by jrp4uc; Sep 12, 2006 at 12:05 AM.
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Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
Originally Posted by guionM
Now think about this possibility (and aside of a Kappa based RWD coupe, this is pure speculation):
A small 4 cylinder Solstice coupe.
A midsized (G6 sized) V6 coupe, called Firebird.
A large V8 powered coupe called "GTO"
meanwhile, over at Chevy........
A Camaro that fits in between Pontiac's V6 coupe & GTO, and...
A FWD Cobalt that fits in between the Solstice and Pontiac's V6 coupe.
and finally....
An "Arts & Science" styled, Northstar powered "GTO" luxury coupe for Cadillac.
A drop top, "Velite" styled "GTO" for Buick.
And finally, a "GTO" for Chevrolet.
(Though it may seem like alot of "GTO" coupes, if GM found a way to make each profitable at 12-30K annually depending on price... pretty likely IMO... it would be pretty straightforward to do)
A small 4 cylinder Solstice coupe.
A midsized (G6 sized) V6 coupe, called Firebird.
A large V8 powered coupe called "GTO"
meanwhile, over at Chevy........
A Camaro that fits in between Pontiac's V6 coupe & GTO, and...
A FWD Cobalt that fits in between the Solstice and Pontiac's V6 coupe.
and finally....
An "Arts & Science" styled, Northstar powered "GTO" luxury coupe for Cadillac.
A drop top, "Velite" styled "GTO" for Buick.
And finally, a "GTO" for Chevrolet.
(Though it may seem like alot of "GTO" coupes, if GM found a way to make each profitable at 12-30K annually depending on price... pretty likely IMO... it would be pretty straightforward to do)
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Re: GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
^ I have to agree with that.^ To use the Camaro argument, why split the development resources between 4 models when you can split it between 2 & cover the same market? Make a GTO for the performance car & then either a Caddy or Buick for the lux version. That way instead of relying on small pieces (fascias, wheels, dash, & steering wheel) to define each (which is likely what you would get with a 4 way). You could at least get a front clip if not a whole body. And, of course, different engines. The problem would be in deciding who gets the lux version. Caddy may not need it, & Buick (which could use it) might have a problem moving it if it sits on the same lots as Goats. I guess the trick would be in how much different you could make the inside & outside look as well as the feature content.
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From: Tampa, FL
Re: GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
If you really wanna get back to the roots of the firebird .
It was supposed to be called a banshee that looked alot like a corvette.
but this car was never put into production because it would compete against the "flagship".
This car was forced to be put onto the camaro platform.
If it would return it should follow its roots back to a camaro platform.
If the firebird would ever return with a top level 4 cyl, I WOULD RATHER BUY A MUSTANG, and call it a day.
The camaro never did it for me. It was always too boring and too plain-Jane.
The firebird always had a better looking interior.
Drive a 1st or 2nd gen camaro- z/28 then drive a 1st or 2nd gen t/a and you tell me what the difference is.
If the firebird looks like this and has the LS2,
I will buy it tomorow!
It was supposed to be called a banshee that looked alot like a corvette.
but this car was never put into production because it would compete against the "flagship".
This car was forced to be put onto the camaro platform.
If it would return it should follow its roots back to a camaro platform.
If the firebird would ever return with a top level 4 cyl, I WOULD RATHER BUY A MUSTANG, and call it a day.
The camaro never did it for me. It was always too boring and too plain-Jane.
The firebird always had a better looking interior.
Drive a 1st or 2nd gen camaro- z/28 then drive a 1st or 2nd gen t/a and you tell me what the difference is.
If the firebird looks like this and has the LS2,
I will buy it tomorow!
Last edited by sam pace; Sep 12, 2006 at 02:13 AM.
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Re: GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
Yea, I would put money down on that car today. It would make sense, the '69 is by far the most popular camaro, while the 77 is the most popular T/A.
Sure is a lotta talk from those in the know on a new firebird....makes me think maybe this is more than just selling 2nd gen T-shirts and models?
Sure is a lotta talk from those in the know on a new firebird....makes me think maybe this is more than just selling 2nd gen T-shirts and models?
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Re: GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
Originally Posted by 1965GP
Yea, I would put money down on that car today. It would make sense, the '69 is by far the most popular camaro, while the 77 is the most popular T/A.
Sure is a lotta talk from those in the know on a new firebird....makes me think maybe this is more than just selling 2nd gen T-shirts and models?
Sure is a lotta talk from those in the know on a new firebird....makes me think maybe this is more than just selling 2nd gen T-shirts and models?
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From: Mack and Bewick
Re: GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
Of course Cadillac needs a coupe. Lexus is the only brand without a 2+2 and the IS coupe is on the way. Theres will be on Sigma and be pretty different.
CTS is getting AWD compatible sigma-wide, so even if it is a "CTC" its probably gonna be pretty big and lux, more STC, or 650i then GTO.
Malibu will probably become the current Impala and that will be bigger and on Zeta.. So a Chevy GTO would be between that and Camaro. While the current Monte Carlo is pretty long in the tooth I dont know who wont buy it as a Pontiac but will as a Chevy.
Velite I would assume would be the only Vert maybe hardtop, and could probably sell next to GTO since they seem to have fairly conservative sales numbers in mind.
As for this kappa... I think it sounds great... As Pursuit or Tempest or Banshee... not Firebird.
CTS is getting AWD compatible sigma-wide, so even if it is a "CTC" its probably gonna be pretty big and lux, more STC, or 650i then GTO.
Malibu will probably become the current Impala and that will be bigger and on Zeta.. So a Chevy GTO would be between that and Camaro. While the current Monte Carlo is pretty long in the tooth I dont know who wont buy it as a Pontiac but will as a Chevy.
Velite I would assume would be the only Vert maybe hardtop, and could probably sell next to GTO since they seem to have fairly conservative sales numbers in mind.
As for this kappa... I think it sounds great... As Pursuit or Tempest or Banshee... not Firebird.
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Re: GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
Originally Posted by Good Ph.D
As for this kappa... I think it sounds great... As Pursuit or Tempest or Banshee... not Firebird.
Poll time.
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From: Tampa, FL
Re: GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
Its kinda funny when there is a rival to the almighty Chevy they want to gut a legend and make it 1/2 of what it should be. It baffles me how GM is putting all of its eggs into Chevy and Cadillac and 1/2 that into what used to be popular brands. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Now if they could only pull their heads out of their ***** get rid of saturn and make the sky the solstice and actually put some design into their cars and not make them look like a Toyota, GM might have a future.
Last edited by sam pace; Sep 12, 2006 at 07:01 PM.
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From: N Falmouth MA
I think I'd cry... seriously....
If they even THINK about down sizing the Firbird/TA... I will cry!
... The Firebird/Camaro have allways been cousin cars. Therefore, built on the same platform. None of this turbo 4, sky lookin "firebird' buisness. It would be a DAM shame for them to demote a legend to something of that calibur!
The Firebird is a muscle car! Allways has been and BETTER still be. If I like it better than the Camaro, I'll get it instead.
Are they releasing ideas/concepts about this yet? I'm a bit behind on some of this. I really don't frequent this room as much as I should.
... The Firebird/Camaro have allways been cousin cars. Therefore, built on the same platform. None of this turbo 4, sky lookin "firebird' buisness. It would be a DAM shame for them to demote a legend to something of that calibur!The Firebird is a muscle car! Allways has been and BETTER still be. If I like it better than the Camaro, I'll get it instead.
Are they releasing ideas/concepts about this yet? I'm a bit behind on some of this. I really don't frequent this room as much as I should.
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Re: GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Caddy will have it's own coupe on Sigma.
Camaro in the upper twenties/low thirties
GTO in the low to mid thirties
Caddy in the upper thirties/low forties
The GTO and Caddy would have more room (i.e. Real Back Seat) than the Camaro.
The Caddy would have more luxury but maybe less performance than the GTO (if the CTS-V gets the LS2 for $50k, don't tell me a coupe is gonna be less and still have an LSx-series motor in it)...
They would all obviously be styled way differently from each other. Differentiation on size, performance, price, and features.
Just thinking out loud, no real product knowledge here/being intimated.
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Re: GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox
Don't you think a Caddy coupe is going to be $40+k when all is said and done? I know you don't see a market between the Camaro and the Caddy for a GTO, but I can see how they would differentiate them.
Camaro in the upper twenties/low thirties
GTO in the low to mid thirties
Caddy in the upper thirties/low forties
The GTO and Caddy would have more room (i.e. Real Back Seat) than the Camaro.
The Caddy would have more luxury but maybe less performance than the GTO (if the CTS-V gets the LS2 for $50k, don't tell me a coupe is gonna be less and still have an LSx-series motor in it)...
They would all obviously be styled way differently from each other. Differentiation on size, performance, price, and features.
Just thinking out loud, no real product knowledge here/being intimated.
Camaro in the upper twenties/low thirties
GTO in the low to mid thirties
Caddy in the upper thirties/low forties
The GTO and Caddy would have more room (i.e. Real Back Seat) than the Camaro.
The Caddy would have more luxury but maybe less performance than the GTO (if the CTS-V gets the LS2 for $50k, don't tell me a coupe is gonna be less and still have an LSx-series motor in it)...
They would all obviously be styled way differently from each other. Differentiation on size, performance, price, and features.
Just thinking out loud, no real product knowledge here/being intimated.
And don't bet on CTS (or it's coupe), not having as much performance as any theoretical GTO. The next gen CTS-V won't be getting the LS2. No sir. What it WILL be getting will be mind numbing.
