GM's return to RWD strategy was explained very well to the press with releases and some on the record conversations. GM intended to go slow, putting RWD in performance and large cars 1st, then trickle down to midsized volume cars later in the decade. GM over the past 6 months or so, seems to have slowed down the pace even further. Meanwhile, Chrysler simply comes along and scores a hit destined for the record books.

Buick is the 1st large "volume" GM car to get RWD, and in almost every way, it's going to be Chrysler 300's actual competitor. But last time I looked, Buick Park Avenues (the car the new RWD sedan will replace) were starting around the $40,000 mark (V6 powered). V8 300Cs start at 32 grand.

I really wonder about GM lately. Sure, they have ALOT of great stuff in the pipeline, but watching them execute their latest great ideas is begining to resemble watching a 3 stooges show.

*Silverado SS is undoubtedly a competitor to the Lightning and the Ram, yet GM put it in the heaviest body they could without resorting to 4 doors, add on the additional extra weight of AWD, tack opn a $40,000 pricetag, and it wasn't even the quickest Silverado you could buy.

*The GTO, which was gone over in another thread, is brought here with high hopes, then it seems GM does everything possible to sabotage it so people who want the car can't get one. No incentives, no rebates, no effort to rein in excessive dealer mark-ups, and then show concern when the car isn't selling as well as predicted.

*The Bonneville GXP takes a nearly decade old car, adds in Oldsmobile's aurora V8 and a few plastic panels, and sells the car for $35,000. They are now discounted & incentived to the teeth with as much as $7-8,000. I have still yet to see any on the road.

*The Solstice was a fantastic idea, and it's development was touted as the new and faster way GM was going to bring cars to market. By the time Solstice actually does come out, it's development time of 36 months is still double what it took Ford to do the GT, about as long as it took Ford to get the Mustang done, and no shorter than what Chrysler was taking to develop cars about 10 years ago.

GM has a new streamlined way of developing cars and a very impressive virtural reality design system that is capable of cutting design times down to 18-24 months. However, because of GM's archaic management and approval system, this new system is completely useless because it still takes GM 4 years or longer to get a car to market (unless, like the Solstice, it's ramrodded in 3).

The RWD cars that had work began in late 2002, early 2003 won't start trickling to market till 2007-2009. Buick's sedan will be here in '06 as an '07 with the Bonneville replacement soon after. In 2008, it so far looks like the GTO/Camaro/Riviera and possibly the CTS sedan & coupe. 2009 it looks like Grand Prix & LeCrosse's replacement, and in 2010 Impala & Monte Carlo.

By comparison, at the moment, it seems that Chrysler will have at least 3 volume rwd cars along with the Magnum (there's 2 cars planned off the Charger's body),& Ford seems to be running at full tilt to get a Mustang based RWD sedan done. All of this buy the time GM get's around to getting just the RWD Buick out.

GM needs to get the lead out, stop trying to drag their their old cars on indefinately. The market is changing at an unbelievable speed. Ford & Chrysler, who GM tried to force into financial turmoil by offering cut throat incentives, then dismissing their complaints is now at the recieving end as Ford threatens to earn double what GM will this year, and Chrysler (with something like 1/10 the dealers of GM and 1/5 of Chevrolet) seems set to have a car model (the 300) that will outsell any car name in General Motors stable, even if for only a year.

GM needs to get real about pricing. Is a GXP worth $35,000? Is a CTSv worth $12,000 over a loaded CTS? Is the Silverado SS worth a $5,000+ premium over a simularly equpted Silverado with the same powerplant? What makes a V6 front drive Buick Park Avenue on a nearly 20 year old chassis worth $10,000 more than a new high powered high quality Chrysler?

If I'm asking these questions, and I'm not in a showroom, it's a safe bet someone who is shopping for a new car will be as well.

 

Excellent post! I agree with pretty much everything that was said. If GM doesn't get something figured out fast, both the import and domestic car makers are going to walk all over them.

 

Fire the bureaucrats...That is all.

 

Hey guionM have you convinced yourself to get a 300C over a 2008 Camaro yet?

 

What a great post. And all of it is true too. GM needs to get with it already. All the other companies are now turning the tables on them.

 

No, but that 2005 Mustang GT at $750 over invoice (local dealer) is drilling in my mind... make it stop!!

Too many good cars coming out. Get the new Mustang, or wait a few months to see the new GTO (or heavy incentives on the current one). Go for the GTO, or wait a few months for the Charger. Go for the Charger, or wait a few months for the 300SRT. Or Cobra. Or...

Hard to believe that just 3 1/2 months ago I was at a Pontiac dealer ready to order a GTO till the dealer refused to forgo a $7,000 markup. Oh well.

 

Is GM too slow for it's own good? :YES

Its kinda like the late Roman Empire...Barbarians at the gates and they are having meetings on what to do.....

Whats even more depressing is that by the time the cars DO get to market...they are a full design cycle behind.

 

It must be internal bureaucracies, it Ford and DC can do it faster at a normal pace than GM can at a WOT, then something is very wrong. We know it can be done, look at the 70;s when the entire line was changed in a couple years. Granted we are seeing a lot of new cars coming out, but they started long ago.

It is not only cars it is technologies as well. I remember it was a few years ago I heard of DoD and it is still not out and other companies have it out before GM.
All the new technology is great, it can speed things up, but only if it is utilized right and by people who want to get things done, not by people who want to have meeting about meetings, and then maybe a post meeting meeting.

Now I am just going overboard (I hope), but simply put, speed up or clean house and restructure the aproaval comittee.

 

Exactly .

Between the Altima , G35 , Accord , Civic , 300 , magnum .......Gm has not one car that is a better bang for the buck than any one of those I listed . Their cars are sadly not even close from a price or a styling standpoint . Sure the Impala is a rock solid quality car , but set a Impala next to a Altima and why on earth would you take the impala . Look at the prices of these GM cars without rebates , OMG!!!!! . Going rebateless sticker for sticker you can pay just a few thousand more for a G35 over GTP comp G , and the infinity is light years ahead of GTP and much quicker stock to boot , same deal with the Altima . The altima you can get with a manual even , it faster and just looks like its in league way above any Grand prix , regal or Impala I really think will ever be really .......Can the G6 be legit competion????? ......from G6 I saw at the auto show , it really appears to the only "current" bright spot for GM . The G6 looks very cool , it absolutely appeared to wreak of quality , the interior materials and looks , IN PERSON , looks very cool and upscale . I guess time will tell as its real close to being released . Hopefully it does some schooling on the Altima , if the prices are right

GM needs MAJOR pricing restrucuring or it will continue to be a company that needs to sell cars by heavily rebating them and thats pretty sad . Im a diehard GM guy , but theres so much cool stuff elsewhere , the only GM car I would buy right now is a GTO.

Hell after seeing the Mazda 3 , I think the 4 door cobalt will be in trouble from the get go . Dont believe me ....go look at one

 

excellent post. i never knew that about the cts-v pricing. it really doens't make sense. the cts-v isn't very well known to anyone. now when some guy goes in to buy a new car he is gonna is it sitting next to a moderately priced cts. probably just barely being able to afford it. he then says hey, that cts-v looks kinda neat how about i test drive it. then drives it and finds out how fast it is. comes back and looks at the stickers. what is he gonna say. "i don't think so!"

 

Wait... why not? So when a 3 series is around 30k, but the M3 is around 50k, should people say "I dont think so!" Why cant the CTS-V be more then the CTS? Its not like they just put an engine in and let it be. They did a bit more guys. Take a look at a fully loaded Linc LS. That comes near 50k, but it doesnt come NEAR the CTS-V in performance. I dont get you guys? If you want a performance luxury sedan, be ready to pay for one. I dont get your logic. If they drive a CTS-V, and they like it, but the price is too much, then its not for him is it? Its not like the CTS-V is the ONLY car Caddy sells. They do also have a very powerful 3.6 V6 CTS with 6spd.


Better bang for the buck? Does Ford have anything out there? If Im looking for a 260hp sedan, what can I get from ford? A 200hp Taurus? I dont get it. Dodge?

The question we need to ask is "Are we a bit hard on GM just because we dont have our Camaro yet?"
In the words of GuionM, "Don't whine... Deal with it!!!"

 

The problem with GM is that they are an extremely conservative, risk averse company. No risk may temporarily protect your position...but gives no chance for big gains in market share.

There is ZERO willingness to gamble...even a calculated gamble--on anything!

Can anyone think of any segment that GM has taken the risk to create first? Anything?

Risks like those which Ford took to create the first Mustang in 1964. This was an unknown segment back then...but they went for it. How about the risk that Chrysler took to invent the minivan...or even the Viper?

Can you imagine an LX program at GM? Think about it. Can you imagine GM saying, we will replace ALL of our FWD W-cars across the board, with a family of high value/high performance RWD cars.....and we're going to do it first. Not a chance.

What about crossover vehicles with a third row like Pacifica and the upcoming Freestyle. The rhinoplasty done on GM's very old minivans aren't going to fool many people. If they come at all from GM...they'll be on the Lambda platform....just in time for DCX's and Ford's 2nd gen vehicles.

I have high hopes for the Delta based Cobalt....but let's face it, they will be playing catch-up with the likes of Mazda 3, Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic.

The problem with GM is that for the past couple of decades....they don't act....they merely re-act.

 

I agree with you Guion, except the CTSv. The luxury and performance you're getting out of that car is very good vs. other cars in its' class. Really this is what Cadillac needs to do in order to regain the market share it has lost in the past 15 years. Just keep building on this and eventually they can start charging premium prices for a premium car. I'd say they're at least a generation out right now though, but as long as GM keeps them well funded, I dont see Cadillac falling behind again.

 

Yes, as usual, GM is moving too slow for its own good but I think we are letting our frustration with the wait for the f-car replacement cloud our judgement. guionM, believe me I was more shocked than you are when I walked out on the lot one day and saw a Park Avenue with a $43,000 sticker price . However this is the top of the line Ultra with the supercharger and a boatload of luxury features. Park Avenue starts at 36 and change minus $3000+ in rebates minus @ $3000 in dealer discounts. Make no mistake, in our eyes the 300c is the far superior car at a better price but I really don't think those cars have the same market segment. The current Park Ave needs to go and it will go. As you know, Buick is benchmarking Lexus as their target market with maximum attention to ride quality and N-V-H (noise/vibration/harshness for those who don't know). Ultimately I think the 300C may be the exception that throws all the rules out the window if it can do everything well. Does it drive like a lexus? I don't know yet, but I don't think its supposed to.

-Yes, GM's pricing strategy needs a major overhaul. Hopefully they will see fit to end the rebate/MSRP shell game with the introduction of new models.

-Silverado SS is undoubtedly NOT a Lighning/SRT 10 competitor. I don't think any one at GM ever has or ever will claim that it is. If any thing it may compare closely with the F150 Harley Davidson Edition but is unique in its offering of AWD, which is a benefit for many of us not blessed with sun all year round.

-Not really sure yet what's going on with the GTO. By the way guionM if you really want a GTO I can refer you to a SoCal dealer with 6 in stock that sells them for below sticker.

-New Mustang vs Solstice lead time. Let's see, Ford has been making Mustangs for 40 years and they designed their show car with production in mind. The Solstice on the other hand was purely a show car thrown together with pieces from the j-car parts bin and some parts from an old transister radio lol. Due to popular demand, Maximum Bob declared "build it" and then they had to discover a platform to build it on. Three years from show to go sounds pretty damn good to me in this scenario!

-Bonne GXP- Consider that it offers "18 wheels, much better looks, StabilitraK and other suspention upgrades along with the ever popular "premium" DOHC v8 for the SAME PRICE as the previous SSEI with a supercharged 3800. Where's the crime there? 7 grand off? Even better! However I have seen no marketing of this car at all (no, 30 seconds in a Sopranos episode does not qualify as an advertising campaign) Hello GM..

- Big Als Z, I think you are dead on with your assessment of the the CTS-V

I think the worst example of GM a$$ dragging would be the SSR. I don't remember when it was first shown, but I do know it was plagued by delays in production. Then they finally show up in November 2003 as an '03 model. Huh?

 

Thank You. Sometimes I wonder if you and I are the last GM fans here.

GM's wise to go slow IMHO. There are still millions of customers who want FWD. I swear some on this site act like it's some kind of natural disaster like a tsunami! I've had hi-performance FWD cars for the most part since 1983, and I'm fine with it especially in the winters of the midwest. I believe GM would lose serious market share if they jumped headfirst into an RWD-dominated lineup. Chrysler has a popular car in the new 300 due more to its distinctive styling and 340 hp than the fact it's RWD. I know you're impatient for a new Camaro... but geez...

GM reminds you of the three stooges? Let me take you for a ride in my GTP CompG. You'll be holding on for dear life!

Silverado SS - as another poster has stated it's not a Lightning killer. Instead it's meant for those wanting good performance, real truck capability with a back seat, and AWD. Get over it already.

GTO - why, for once, can't you bunch of whiners focus on the positive? 350 hp... great quality... four exquisite leather bucket seats... punk-free styling... BMW-spanking performance and street presence for a fraction of the price. Don't like it? STOP WHINING ABOUT IT and go get that DaimlerCX 300 you so covet.

Bonne GXP has clean, elegant styling and a humping rumbling V8 as well as a value price (with the incentives in place). Of course that's not good enough for your highness...

Thanks for the long-ranging prediction of all the General's plans for the next few years. Oops, you forgot to talk about the serious power boost dropping into the SSR soon, the 05 GTO's enhancements on the way very soon, the TrailBlazer SS against which Ford has NOTHING to offer, the C6, the CTS-SuperV, Cobalt SS, Redline Vue and the Grand Prix GXP.... all of which are being eagerly awaited by those GM enthusiasts not consumed by bitterness about a lack of continuous supply of new Camaros

It behooves GM to be careful. Remember the TBird? Marauder? Wave bu-bye to them.