Also one thing that is overlooked is that GM's rebate scheme allows them to basically adjust the selling price of a car by region, which is pretty slick if you ask me. You can sell for less in poor areas, or areas your brand is having trouble, and for more in areas you are not.

 

It's just more of the same.

-Same old GM, almost none of their cars are considered "Best in Class" by anyone other than GM employees and die hard loyalists that would buy a solar powered flashlight if it had a GM logo on it. At best, they have several competitive and one "Best in Class" Corvette. More of the same preproduction hype only to see the new models hit the ground walking.

-Same old case of too many models, too many divisions draining focus, development resources and marketing dollars and preventing the creation of world class cars and trucks. Anyone ever notice that the best cars made by GM are not shared very much and don't proliferate all over the company? (The Holdens, Cadillac, Corvette). As long as Toyota and Ford can continue to achieve similar sales volumes with fewer nameplates and equal or lower discounting, they will make more money. Consider also the fact that by putting development and marketing money into things like 7 versions of the trailblazer, they are really going after mostly the same buyers and are missing totally buyers of cars like Hybrids, Diesels, RWD cars, premium small cars, hatchbacks, and affordable convertibles.

-More of the same old GM ignoring its legions of fans and loyalists in the development products then releasing them to market and saying "Here they are" Would any mod-happy F-body enthusiast have asked for a 4th gen car with the engine under the windshield? Will a 5th gen be any better? Will GM get the same level of involvement from fans as Ford did when developing the 2005 Mustang?

I had great hopes for Lutz and crew, but it seems that not even he can do more than redirect this ship from mediocrity to average. Nothing they have in the pipeline has raised an eybrow for me (except possibly a Camaro), even with the $2600 in GM card points that I have.

 

Again, I agree. And GM often has a better vantage point than single dealers so it makes sense for them to tune prices by zone.

Other posters herein - speaking of 'more of the same'. Egads. GM doesn't do this, can't do that, won't do whatever.

Oopsy. Buick ALREADY HAS better quality than Mercedes and Chrysler:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7086

Visual appeal? To who? The 300C has all the appeal of a detergent box IMHO. Its got a novel shape, that's all that has people fawning over it today. Give it ten years on the street and I seriously doubt people will even remember it (the way, for example, the 4gen fbodies will be cherished and coveted by collectors for many years to come). And who's to say maybe the 300C pricing will stay the same?

Congrats to Ford on its 'Johnny-come-lately' success. Just don't look at recent history, it might spoil your rosy outlook:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosins...utos-54663.htm

The article also pointed out how Ford truck sales fell 4.7% in January, despite record sales of the new F150.

DCX - doing better - well they oughta be, after their dismal 2003:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosins...utos-55466.htm

Some was due to shedding of a defense subsidiary, some was due to simple bad management - I wonder if some was also due to buyers having a reaction to the way Daimler took over and subjucated an American manufacturing icon? (Lots of Americans are a little less friendly to German companies/products now, after Germany turned tail and cowardly ran away from their NATO commitments in the war in Iraq).

Baloney. Better cars? How? Where's the Ford sedan that can match a CTS-V for the price? For that matter where's the Ford sedan that can match my CompG? Rebates are bad, how? Final profit on a given vehicle is independent of the rebate offered -- it's the combination of cost, price and incentives that determine total profit.

All I know is edmunds.com is saying the AVERAGE price for a 300C is right at sticker. Since some folks always manage to get a discount (such as company employees) I imagine there are no doubt areas (especially warm climates where people don't care as much about FWD winter traction) where the 300C is indeed selling significantly above sticker (how DARE they! ).

Which is it now? Should they, or should they not offer incentives? You're trapped by your own logic here partner. For that matter it makes it sound like "oh well, it's all over... it's all TOO LATE now!" Sheesh. It was only a couple months ago, there were hardly any GTO's even available at dealer lots. What's the point of a dealer slapping on incentives for cars they don't even have on the lots yet? Now they do have some in inventory, and now they are offering discounting. So sorry it all wasn't accomplished quickly enough to meet your demanding standards, grand poobah of marketing.

There were likely some who said the Subaru WRX wasn't exciting either, until they drove one and a cult following ensued. Have you driven a G6? There are attributes of my CompG and the G6 share, which I enjoy - such as the lack of thick side cladding. What kind of excitement were you looking for, exactly? Some fake hood scoops like you can get on the high-profit 04 Mustang GT? As for blending in with traffic... Toyota is king of that already.

Maybe you should have said 'quarter mile enthusiast'. Because I am enthralled at how my CompG's StabiliTrak Sport keeps me on track in snowy weather, how the TapShift allows me to power out of curves like a clutched car, and how well my XM stereo is integrated with my Heads-Up Display. I've learned over the years, there's a lot more to driving enjoyment than just the 1/4 mile.

Uninspired? Who else has an Avalanche? An H2 and the upcoming H3? Even the GTO (despite all the whining by a vocal minority) is a breakthrough in modern muscle cars, with its roomy back bucket seats and IRS. Malibu Maxx - not innovative? (Sat in the sliding, reclining back seats of one?). The upcoming Trailblazer SS - not innovative? (Where's Ford's hi-performance SUV?) Equinox, C6, Caddy XLR, not inspired and well-received designs? That sir is pure BS.

 

At 27k you're competing with a WRX, a 350Z, almost in G35 territory.....how exactly is the GTP a "Good deal" in that segment?

The vocal majority are all of the people who aren't buying the new GTO. Here in SoCal I've only seen 2 GTOs ever. Mind you, I've seen dozens of 300Cs and they've been out for far less. I LIKE the GTO, but it's not a popular car. Obviously something isn't right on it, because it isn't selling.

I don't think anybody will argue with you that GM does great in the SUV market. And no one has ever argued that the Corvette was a bad car. The XLR....I actually saw one of those the other day, I was surprised and it took me a second, because in the 6 months since it had been realeased I had never seen one before. Mind you, this isn't a market where that type of car is rare, I see tons of SL500s, I even average 2-3 SL55 AMG's a week.

Unfortunately, all of GM's cars besides Caddy and the Vette are boring. Even the Caddys aren't selling like hotcakes, so obviously they haven't gotten the formula right. And the rest of the line is dull dull dull. You seem like a big time GM fan, so if you're out to buy a car with the stipulation that it has to be GM, then I guess that makes the G6 exciting. But to those of us who actually take a look at other brands, GM is a pretty big disappointment.

 

Your all wrong...

The 27K I was quoting was for a loaded (literally every option)Comp G with an MSRP of $32-33K....how much is a loaded G35?

A WRX is small, has no where near the options, and is rated at 40 less HP....

A 350Z is a two seater and fully loaded is well in the $30's (I doubt many cross shop the two)...


True competion would be say the Altima or Maxima...and neither offer a HUD, Stabilitrak Sport, factory XM, Onstar, or Magnasteer or TapShift. The Max or Altima can not match it option for option...and next year it gets a Nav system and a V8, plus more options and stuff. The Maxima is rated at 265 HP, but alot of owners are complaining that the cars are not making that power . In the mid-sized quazi-sport sedan class the GP is a good value...which is why they are selling much better than the old ones

 

Glad to hear this. It took Cadillac just a few years to change their perception.

Quote:

Visual appeal? To who? The 300C has all the appeal of a detergent box IMHO...
Give it ten years on the street and I seriously doubt people will even remember it (the way, for example, the 4gen fbodies will be cherished and coveted by collectors for many years to come).

If F-bodies are valuable in the future, it will be because they are rare & had very unusual styling.

When you take a successful styling risk, you are going to have people who will hate the things as well as a group that would knock down a wall to get one. The 300 is just as much that as the 4th gen Camaro was.

Short of GM's upcoming halo cars there doesn't seem to be anything visually different enough to get the person buying a family car to forgo Toyota's (overstated) reputation, or Chrysler 300s stand apart looks.

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Congrats to Ford on its 'Johnny-come-lately' success. Just don't look at recent history, it might spoil your rosy outlook:[/url]

No illusions here on Ford's past. But Ford is now making money despite selling fewer cars and adding more content to them.

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DCX - doing better - well they oughta be, after their dismal 2003:

Again, nothing new here. I spent most of last year ranting about how Daimler was completely screwing up Chrysler. Every hickup Chrysler had in earnings was met with cuts in employees, while good product that has ready to go got sat on. Daimler finally backed off last summer.

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(Lots of Americans are a little less friendly to German companies/products now, after Germany turned tail and cowardly ran away from their NATO commitments in the war in Iraq).

Iraq was never a NATO operation, that one was all on us and whoever we convinced to go along. No one was under any treaty or commitment to send anything to Iraq.

German cars still sell well.... despite that dastardly BMW iDrive & Mercedes Benz's electronic demons.


The CTSv costs over $52,000. I don't think I can name any Ford sedan at that price, match or not!

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For that matter where's the Ford sedan that can match my CompG?

I'm assuming you are talking about performance, and not sales (Taurus outsells Grand Prix by completely obscene numbers). I think Charlie has one that might give you a run for the money.

Seriously, if you are talking current Ford models on a desireability level, I'd have to go over to Chrysler. If you are talking any sedans, I'd have to go over to Chrysler.

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Rebates are bad, how? Final profit on a given vehicle is independent of the rebate offered -- it's the combination of cost, price and incentives that determine total profit.

Rebates are bad for the company because they are in effect cutting the price of their cars to get you to buy it. Simply put, they are getting less money for their car.

As Branden pointed out, incentives & rebates can be customized for any market area where a car's performing badly. Second, it keeps the residuals and resale value up. Third, there would be alot of extremely angry buyers pounding on the door if there was a serious price cut during the model year.

GM has partly recovered the money lost on rebates through a combination of cuts in the manufacturing costs of their cars, raising the price of their cars to artificially high levels, and the high volume of far more profitable Trucks & SUVs.

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All I know is edmunds.com is saying the AVERAGE price for a 300C is right at sticker. Since some folks always manage to get a discount (such as company employees) I imagine there are no doubt areas (especially warm climates where people don't care as much about FWD winter traction) where the 300C is indeed selling significantly above sticker (how DARE they! ).

As I said before, I live in California. 300s are not selling significantly above sticker. In my area, they are selling at sticker.

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Which is it now? Should they, or should they not offer incentives? You're trapped by your own logic here partner...

...Now they do have some in inventory, and now they are offering discounting. So sorry it all wasn't accomplished quickly enough to meet your demanding standards, grand poobah of marketing.

I actually went out looking for GTOs last March. No one was dealing on them. Today, you still can't get a test drive in one without promising to buy it 1st.

I'm sorry if by my demanding standard, the idea of charging $8,000 to $9,000 over sticker for a $32,000 car is assinine and moronic, and it's a shame those same dealers whine like schoolgirls with their panties in a bunch that the cars aren't selling. Guess I'll have to take the hit for that one, huh?

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There were likely some who said the Subaru WRX wasn't exciting either, until they drove one and a cult following ensued. Have you driven a G6? There are attributes of my CompG and the G6 share, which I enjoy - such as the lack of thick side cladding. What kind of excitement were you looking for, exactly? Some fake hood scoops like you can get on the high-profit 04 Mustang GT? As for blending in with traffic... Toyota is king of that already.

WRX had a built in cult following before it ended up here, thanks to video games. Com'on , if old me knows this, I know you do as well.

I never was curious enough about the 300M to check it out at the dealer and test drive it. Yet the 300 had such a look, it was something I wanted to check out myself. THEN I was surprised with the car. That's the whole point. You have to have something to get people curious enough to get them IN the showroom to check the thing out 1st.

I doubt I'll be curious enough to test drive a G6.

I'm sure StabliTrak on a FWD car is a godsent in places where snow is on the ground most of the year (like Nome, Alaska), or how TapShift is perfect for those who either don't know how to or are too lazy to drive a real stick shift, or that XM stereo is availible ONLY in the Grand Prix Comp (and not on just about every single other vehicle with 4 wheels and a steering wheel nowadays), and I really feel those people with whiplash, fused necks, or those marginal drivers that cant glance at their guages without ending up in a ditch will simply adore that heads up display.

BUT for those of us who don't deal with snow more than 2 months total per year (which I think covers every state save for Alaska), realize that "AutoShifting" and "XM radios" aren't simply the property of the Grand Prix CompG, and can actually glance at our guages without hitting something really aren't impressed.

Throw a bag of money on the hood, and I'm sure you'll sell a few....... oh, I'm sorry. That's already happening.

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Uninspired?.. Even the GTO (despite all the whining by a vocal minority) is a breakthrough in modern muscle cars, with its roomy back bucket seats and IRS. Malibu Maxx - not innovative? (Sat in the sliding, reclining back seats of one?). The upcoming Trailblazer SS - not innovative? (Where's Ford's hi-performance SUV?) Equinox, C6, Caddy XLR, not inspired and well-received designs? That sir is pure BS.

GTO: Great car, but calling it a breakthrough??

Like you, I'm also put off by the whining of others about the car. But lets be honest here, no one's going to pay $40,000.... and no one is.

H2: it's a "Image" vehicle. I'm not going to buy one at $50,000+. Neither are you. What's your point?

Malibu Maxx: It is innovative. But the Aztec had an excellent, well designed interior, and was IMHO one of the best interiors GM designed recently. But if you can't get someone to fall in love with the exterior, the car's going to sit there without discounts and incentives.

Equinox: Now THIS more like it! It's a fantastic design, it has a great interior, it's the right size! This is the type of "Gotta Have It" vehicle I'm talking about that GM needs more of.

XLR, C6: Again, GM has the niche market down. I personally don't like the C6's styling, but I do appriciate that GM took a chance here, and I'm not going to slam the car. XLR is also a great "Gotta have it".

But where's that risk taking with their "volume" cars? Where's the same passion? Where are the cars that are going to look sooo good, that it's going to make people forget Toyota's overrated quality, or not care if a car has high incentives or rebates?

Where is has it all gone?

It's all gone into XM stereos, heads up displays, tapshift transmissions, and convincing people they simply cant drive on a public road without "Stabiltrak" without risking death or dismemberment, thats where.

 

More or less the same "end of GM" speech that you made last time.
Lets take a look at this. "Gotta have" cars huh? Well, who's deffinition are you going by? I think GM has a lot more "gotta have" cars then Dodge/Chrystler and Ford put together. Dodge has 3 cars that are hot now. The SRT4 Neon, 300, and Ram. No one is clawing at the window for a Status? No one drools over a Town and Country. "mmm look at thoes fold away seats! *drool*".
The 300 and the SRT4 are hot now because of bang for the buck IMO. Chrystler took a HUGE gamble and jumped back into the RWD market. They could have failed and landed flat on there face. They somehow found the love for large American sedans again after everyone jumped out. Now GM is stupid for not making a RWD car. Like they knew this? I dont see any RWD Ford sedans making the headlines? No one is commending the CV on its 5 billionth fleet sales?
Ford. Ford has 2 cars that people want right now. The GT and Mustang. The F150 is popular, but its sales havent risen or falling in such drastic numbers where it would note a "gotta have" kind of deal. They sell just as many "out dated" and "crappy" GM trucks. Yeah, the new Mustang is "gotta have" but by whom? Enthusiasts? Ya dam right. How about thoes people who represent the 60+% V6 sales? Is it gunna be that "gotta have" for years to come? Only time will tell.
Is anyone jumping up and down over the 500? Are people holding there breath for the Futura? Do people drive to there local ford dealer waiting for the arival of a new shipment of Freestars?
The 500 is gunna fall short before it even hits the market. What is it going against? It has a weak 200hp engine thats carred over from the Taurus. Ooh it will have AWD!! I dont think the 500 and its Merc rebadge will do well at all. Pretty much just keep sucking like the Taurus has. The new Impala should easily out class that car. Hell, the Malibu looks able to do the job.
The Futura or whatever other name they wana rip off. Who knows. Either Focus sales are gunna dip, or it will help kill off the 500.
Focus...same old same old. I actualy liked the Focus outside of the 16 million recalls. Im looking for a nice 3-5 dr hatchback, and the Focus was on my list till I read about the recalls. I already had my fun with recalls on my Taurus.

GM has a lot of "ooh" and "ahh" cars. The C6, SSR, and GTO are 3 great cars that i "gotta have." Especialy when they all cary the same 400hp LS2! The Cobalt will have people normaly looking elsewhere, back into the Chevy show rooms. Especialy with teh SS model. Thats gunna drag a lot of kids into the showrooms saying "i want that!" The Solstice... absofreakinsexy is the work I think of when I see that car. I want one in the worst way. Where is Dodge on that? The Crossfire? If anyone watched Clarksons/Top Gear review of that... the car isnt worth the 30k. I rather get more power, better handling and more seats in a GTO.
The LaCrosse, IMO, is the best looking Buick in a long time. Clearly a step into the lexus direction. The new Caddy's have seemed to be hits as soon as they are released. Hell, even Saab is staring to look good to me.

As far as Chrystler gunning for Lexus... yeah, ok. Maybe next reconstruction. I doubt many people, if any, cross shop the GS430 or ES330 with the 300 series. The 300 was designed to be priced along the likes of Toyota Camry and Honda Accord, V6 wise.

So before we start saying that GM is hopeless, lets look at everyone else please. Ford is losing market share left and right. But they made tons of money! Where is it going too? Not sedans. Not back into the company? Right now, Lutz is cleaning out GM and trying to get rid of the old, and replace it with new. Its gunna take more then 2 years to do.

 

I'm not sure how many are cross-shopping these cars, with the possible exception of the WRX and the GTP. Even then though, the GTP has more interior room and versatility (eg three folding seats) so it's not much of a contest.. as for the G35, just for kicks I ran thru a true-market-value assessment at edmunds for a G35 equipped like my $26k CompG - the G35 came in at $35k! (Now WHO was that, speaking of a $10k differential amongs competitors in a class??? )

IF the GTO was meant to be some kind of Toyota Corolla, this might matter. It matters little how many of the limited run of GTO's have already been put out onto the streets. What matters is how satisfied its owners are. I read a lot of boards - and I've yet to come across an 04 GTO owner expressing disappointment or dissatisfaction. Instead they are delighted, and telling how many people walk up to them and compliment their cars. They are happy customers... isn't that what matters?

Your opinion. Personally though I don't see how the average enthusiast can AVOID being a little excited with all of GM's performance offerings, the Saab 9-2X, 9-3, the Saturn RedLine coupe and Vue, the Pontiac GTO and CompG GTP, and the , Chevy SSR, Silverado SS, Impala SS and Cobalt SS... not to mention what's coming from GM. Guess some of us are just not fans... unless it's NOT a GM product being mentioned

 

You can get the WRX in a wagon. You can also get a 250HP AWD Legacy with a 5-Speed for roughly the same money as a GTP. Also in sedan or wagon.

 

Still does the Legacy have a HUD, Stabilitrak, XM integrated into the car and the HUD, Onstar, TapShift. Plus, I am pretty sure the Grand prix is not loosing a bunch of sales to people who want Legacy's

 

Guion, I agree with you on GM's pricing and their "dull" volume cars a little. Personally I wish GM's MSRP's werent so high that they relied on rebates but I'm assuming their business guys have a good reason for it so till it drops the bomb on them I wont criticize it.

Their volume cars do indeed look dull. In fact, I'm hoping this covered up Malibu running around has some more flare in the front end to give it a more aggressive look than the current one. However keep in mind that Honda and Toyota's volume cars are yawners as well. Obviously they have high reliablitiy ratings as well which is part of the reason they sell so well so if GM can squash the public's perception of American quality, these dull cars would probably move a little faster. I wish none of GM's cars looked dull and unexciting but I guess this market segment seems to call for that kind of style (or lack thereof). The 300 has done so well so fast because it was something "different" not because of its so called stunning looks IMO. The thing is a brick on wheels, but it resembles a bentley closely and it looks nothing like the rest of its competition. IF the 300 was designed to be a little more rounder, aka a closer evolution of the 300M would it still sell as well? Outside of the HEMI, I dont think it would.

Also one area where I really think you're not giving enough credit is the Cobalt. Sure, the Cobalt, if you look CLOSELY, does kind of look like what a future Cavalier might look like. But to me when I see the Cobalt, I dont think "new Cavalier". The thing is a new car on the outside and ESPECIALLY on the inside.

So Chevy has the basics down, a great interior and an exterior that lends perfectly to the "dress it up with body kits and wings" crowd. Now to the motor. Before the Ecotec, there was the 2.2L 115hp (what a joke) and the 2.4L Quad 4 150hp (weird design, not aftermarket friendly at all). Then the Ecotec came along. I even doubted this thing but if you've read even the last review about the Ion Redline in SCC, they seem to praise the Ecotec motor. They like its power and the fact that its the first GM 4 banger to be boost friendly. So now they have one of the biggest mags in the sport compact world liking its motor. Give them the "better than Cavalier its not even in the same league" Cobalt with an Ecotec sitting under the hood and the word will be out in the sport compact world about the Cobalt I believe. I never thought I'd see the day I saw Honda boys loving fast Neons so I dont think its a stretch to say these same fans can accept the brand new Cobalt.

One last thing to the Cobalt haters, do not bring up the "well its supercharged, these guys love turbos". Keep in mind the Honda Civic (the best selling car in the sport compact world) NEVER came from the factory with a turbocharger. However there were plenty of tuners out there taking the Honda 4 cyl and slapping turbochargers on them. I believe we could see the same thing with the Cobalt. Not to the extent or popularity as the Hondas, but I believe the car will "break" into this segement with some force.

Sorry for the long post. Feel free to flame and slam away!

 

Saabs are priced way out of their class and wrong wheel drive. Save for whichever one of those is a marked up WRX. The SSR is heavy, slow and $42k. The Silverado SS is woefully outclassed by the F150 Lightning, and I'm not really that impressed by FWD "sporty" cars in the high 20's.

The Cobalt SS is a great step in the right direction. I saw it and thought it was a great entry into that marketplace. Glad GM decided to step up and compete. Redline AFAIK is the same thing but a Saturn, so that's good for them.

Where's the car that'll compete with a WRX? Or a Mustang for that matter? What if I'm a guy who wants to spend $20-30k and wants something fast and not FWD? Or with a manual transmission and not a sport shift automatic with a fancy name?

In the sporty sedan market, you can get a 250hp Subaru Legacy GT for $26k MSRP, a 240hp Honda Accord V6 starting at 24kMSRP, a 265hp Nissan Maxima at $27 MSRP...and these are all MSRP prices, not a your milage may vary depending on how lucky you get with rebates price. As you guys all said, GM may decide to lower the rebates in my area if they think I can afford it.

A HUD seems about as nice to me as the digital dashes that were all the rage 10 years ago. Manual shift automatics are really common, and honestly, where's the manual transmission option? XM Satellite radio? It's not like that's some rare OEM only feature. Does GM buy the subscription for you? That'd be nice.

I've looked a lot at the G6/GTP because I think they're decent looking cars and I'm predisposed towards American vehicles. But they're priced way out of their league. The 32K MSRP places the car damned close to the 35K MSRP of a loaded G35, which is from a luxury marque!

Stabilitrak and tapshift don't sound nearly as appealing to me as all wheel drive and a manual transmission.

 

SFireGt98 - I agree completely. The new Cobalt SS will be a major success for GM, especially with the small car tuner crowd. You have to squint VERY hard to see the Cavalier heritage... and I imagine the s/c boost will blow all such memories away!

Now back on this Iraq thing, one point and I will refrain from thread-jacking:

Wrong again:

http://www.cdi.org/iraq/nato-turkey.cfm

And this stuff about Ford's lack of sedan offerings...

Go ahead and have your chuckles... that will help you avoid the painful questions such as - whatever happened to the affordable Taurus SHO? Why doesn't Ford (Ford MOTOR Co., not the Ford brand ) have an SVT Lincoln LS to go up against the CTS-V? In fact I'll be generous and go look at Ford's Jaguar subsidiary - eg, the S-type-R (King of goofy names BTW). This S-T-R has 390 hp, 395 tq, but also 3970 lb and costs $63k according to edmunds. Poor competition for the CTS-V I'm afraid (Ooh! there's that pesky $10k again! )

Who's Charlie??? And how many mods has he got... since a stock Taurus hasn't a prayer going up against a stock CompG.

That point I made about the total equation of sticker, incentives and cost flew right over your head didn't it? It almost dawned on you here....

As for the land of fruits and nuts...

Congrats on that. Did you really mean 300's, or 300C's?

Funny, I test drove one last week and the dealer made no such demand. The dealer is discounting them. I loved the car. I sat in the back seat for a little while, adjusted the headrest, tried out the rear console vents, and admired the neatly assembled interior. I loved how it felt on the road... put it in low range (A4), got it up to about 3000-4000 RPM and listened to its wonderful song. Alas, I likely won't be getting one this year (I just got my CompG last summer) but the GTO is a very nice car and is head/shoulders better than the LS1 Formula I had.

Umm, no. I'm not a gamer... had no clue really about the WRX legends of the videogame crowd. Guess I'm old fashioned, thought enthusiasts might love a car for its drivetrain.

StabiliTrak is handy here in slushy, icy Michigan too. Come here some winter, drive to work every day in it like I do, and you'll change your carefree analog RWD song

TapShift - This is a feature that as recently as just a few years ago, I could only dream of. Guess what - I'm fine with a clutch, I drove a M4 Chevy stake truck in a summer job... frankly though it's a chore rowing a shifter and pumping a clutch (hope that's ok with you and the other clutch-clutchers here). Plus my wife drives my cars now and then and she is anti-clutch to the hilt. But I'd seen the steering column shifters on F1 racecars and exotic Ferraris... and thought it was only something I could dream of. Now here it is, on my car! Yes, I've seen these gated semi-automatic shifters on some cars like new Acura TL. They're a lame substitute IMO for having the shifters right up by your thumbs, where your hands SHOULD be already during any kind of spirited driving.

XM - yes, I'm aware it's becoming a common feature now (after, once again, GM TOOK THE LEAD to provide it in widespread markets). I just like how it's built in and integrated into my HUD so that I see each XM channel show in my HUD in plain English as I tune my stereo with the steering-wheel mounted controls. I happen to think that is pretty cool and it increases my driving enjoyment immensely. So the HUD is some kind of aid for the focus-challenged? Better talk to the US military - HUDs have been vital cockpit aids for fighter pilots for decades now. Guess fighter pilots have some kind of... deficiency too?

When I was in the USAF, I helped with engineering management of fighter cockpit design (specifically, ejection seat systems). They had a concept called HOSAT (Hands on Stick and Throttle). It was an ergonomic principle that the pilot could fight and survive better if he/she pretty much always had two hands glued onto the throttle quadrant and the control stick, and had eyes glued to the HUD. Same principle... but instead, I'm on the street, killing Fords and sport imports....

 

Maybe so. And it's not too bad a package (part of the reason I'm excited about its sister car, the Saab 9-2X sport wagon). But for me, comparing to a CompG, several key things missing from the little wagon:

1. No stability control
2. No HUD - for that matter no steering-wheel mounted controls or shifters either in this spartan interior.
3. Less rear hip, leg and shoulder room than a Prix
4. Deficiency of 30 ft lb of tq vs the CompG.
5. I'm not a big fan of driving around in a station wagon. I love the swoopy, fastback-like, chopped-n-channeled look of the 04 Grand Prix roofline

 

This is such a crap argument...Subaru may have the WRX, but it is by no means a mainstream vehicle or one that is making some say "Screw that Grand Prix...I am getting a WRX!"


Also just to hammer home the point...

Subaru in May sold-

14,270 Total cars in the US an Japan

GM in May sold-

12,510 Grand Prixs

So basically GM sells nearly as many Grand Prix's in the US as Subaru sells in the world.

Grand Prix sales are up 50% on the year, and the new car is a great sucess...no one can deny that.