mastrdrver

, you did not just call the w-bodies reliable art did you? Problems that still to this very day plague w-bodies: front wheel bearings going bad, tie rod ball joints being loose, window motors, broken swaybars, an this does not include the oil leak problems that still plague the "new" 3.5/3.9 V6. The w-body is one of the worst platforms out there with problems. You may not think wheel bearings and loose tie rod ball joints are bad, but when you need to get an alignment because of bad tire wear, you need to fix these problems or the alignment is useless. Also, I have seen more than just one or two like this. I work as a lube tech and see these cars all day long with these problems. I was excited when GM was going to replace the platform, but regressed when I hear it was suppose to be around until 2010 or so.

Also, the 3800 has been crap from the get go. Only the Series 3 might stand a chance to be decent, but came in too late to be replaced by the 3.6/3.5/3.9. Not only did the 60* V6 have intake oil/coolant leak problems, so did the 3800s. The Series 2 intakes, being plastic and of bad design, crack around the EGR and cause drivability problems. Even with a replaced GM intake, they never fixed the design flaw and even the replaced intakes do the same thing.

The only bright spot has been the Ecotec, the more recent bettering of the Malibu (with the face lift in '04) and Cobalt, and the V8s in the trucks and SUVs. Though even the Cobalt, and until the redesigned Malibu, still have suspension problems. They are a step up to decent from the utter crap that was the late 90's Malibu and Cavalier/Sunfire, its not saying much.

Sure Toyota and Honda and the likes have had their problems and got better in recent years. The problem is they didn't come from making complete junk. They started from decent and moved to great. I know people make out the stuff that comes from Japan to be superior to what is made in the US. This was really fact until the last 2 years for GM. The problem is not that they are not getting better, but that are just not getting better fast enough. I've only been a lube tech for the last year or so and I know I havn't seen it all. But I've seen enough as to why people believe that GM still makes crap. If I moved from the stuff they made until recently to even a early 2000s Civic/Corolla/Accord/Camry, I would never go back either and say the things a lot of people say too.

What really gives me hope with the new Malibu is that the Ecotec is light years, I mean light years ahead of the 4cyl crap that GM used to make. Add that to the amazing new Malibu, both inside and out. With some 70% of that market being made of 4 cylinders, I think GM will make a come back quick. Also, with the Cruze, as long as GM does not have the oil leak problems that have plagued every turbo Volvo/Saab/VW of recent memory, then they will have a huge winner on their hands. The thing is, is it too little too late?

Big_Z

So you've changed some oil and suddenly you know everything there is about cars out there? Do you really think Gm is the only company to ever have a ball joint, tie rod, power window motor, or gasket fail?

mastrdrver

Are they the only ones, no. Are they the only ones with a recent past of massive problems, yes.

Also, your right. I've changed some oil so what do I know? Only the same things that all techs know.

I'm not saying that others are the exception and rarely have this problem. Its like one guy said at work, everyone wants the problem free car. Problem is that it doesn't exist. This coming from someone who drives a 04 Camry. Supposedly, if you read all the mags and people who have had good import experiences, you would think that this is the only problem free car made in the world and it never breaks. If you make mention to anyone, when talking about a midsized car purchase, about the engine sludge law suit that Toyota had, they would look at you like you just made it up as a desperate resort to get them to see things your way. I was even talking to a friend's of my parents. They had one of the Honda Odyssey that recently had the transmission problems. They were looking for a new minivan sized vehicle. I made mention of the, at that time, new Lambda's from GM. Of one of the strong things over the last almost 20 years HAS been GM's FWD autos. They proceeded to tell me that they were worried about the new transmission and we really looking at another Odyssey!! I about fell out of my chair dumbfounded on that one! You have a minivan that has a known transmission problem. Then proceed to tell me that your looking at a newer version of it and you dismiss my suggestion because of inexperienced GM transmission problems?!?!? How do you talk to someone with that kind of logic? I just mostly sat there in total amazement that I just hear that as a buying factor.

Back to the point though. Again, its not that GM has problems, but until recently, it has been the vastness of the problems. We can go on about how up until the early 2000s, the Toyota 3.0 V6 would leak oil out of every gasket possible seemingly as you hit 100k miles. Early, and maybe still, Ford Duratec V6 engines guaranteed to have the oil pan leak. Chrysler and their leaking solenoids on their FWD transmissions, though apparently now fix in the replacement part (GM are you listening??). The amazing assortment of reoccurring problems of, possibly up until late 90s/early 2000s, Civics with cracked manifolds, exhaust always rusting and falling apart, oil pans that leak, etc.

I think the problem with GM, and why maybe Ford has been able to turn around their perception seemingly faster, is two fold:

1)The problems old GMs has was not that they had problems and they others didn't. But that the repairs you had to have on your GM to keep it on the road are huge compared to that of those from other perceived better quality options.

2)Ford has been able to not only thoroughly, and almost completely replace their, replace all their models that had some kind of perceived problem. Also, they setup a system by which if problems arise in these new perceived better quality models they can quickly and hopefully correctly isolate the problems and fix the unreliable part with one that is of quality.

The G6, being the longest new GM that has been around is of great and outstanding quality far surpassing that of what complete junk, in relative terms, GM put out just at the end of 90s (remember the Grand Am?). If this is an example of what the new GM can do, and it is, then there is no place for these perceptions out there. Problem is, GM has been mind numbingly slow at replacing vehicles of yester GM with the newer, better quality vehicles of today GM. That is why GM's perception is killing it, though Ford's similar quality problems have seemly been cast off into America's amnesia about the problems and Ford's resolve, though I do not know whether GM is similar is this action, to prevent reoccurring problems from plaguing new vehicles.

So what happens with the, to a certain degree, small problems that plagued older GM vehicles? Its spreads and things that were, in fact, problems that GM never had are now seen as fact. When in reality they are merely the proliferation of other constant GM problems into realms that were once things one could rely on when it came to quality from GM. So you now have a GM that maybe turning tides, but is doing it so slow that the old problematic things that plagued GM of old is unfoundedly plaguing GM of new and the newer, far surpassing in better quality that they are putting out now. So, you end up in a constant loop that, no matter how many quality reviews you show and how many numbers you present to those who question the new GM, will never quash the problematic GM old that started the whole mess in the first place. The only way to fix it, at GM's rate, is that a vest majority of the old GM vehicles will having to all be sanctioned away to the graveyard so that no one can experience their problems and have, in their mind, justifiable reasons, no matter how outlandish and unfounded, to believe that the vehicles GM is making now is of any different quality than that of anyone else.

Dan Daly

JD Power and Associates explains perfectly why the perception exist . . . because it was reality for so long. You guys can throw little anecdotes out there like, well my neighbors Sunfire lasted until 200k miles; but it doesn't mean that it's the norm, or that the car wasn't unenjoyable the whole time either.

Interior fit and finish, refinement, features, style, and yes reliability all play into the perception of things. I'm still waiting for someone out there to tell me with a straight face that the Lumina or Malibu was a better car than the Accord or Camry, or that the Cavalier and Sunfires were better cars than a Civic . . .

SSbaby

Remind your friends how the Nissan GTR requires an engine refresh at 50,000 miles at a lazy $20K. Remind them too that the transmissions also appear to be a potential weak link and that Nissan flatly refuses to honour warranty claims because the owner didn't follow strict instructions in the owner's manual.

Now, imagine how much flak GM would cop if they designed the ZR1 the same way. There is no way I would to be held ransom by any carmaker that way. It reminds me of why I prefer to buy American in preference to Euro/Asian... at least as far as performance is concerned.

anasazi

you are suppose to ignore that in this forum

Dan Daly

And Forbes releases its best of and worst of 2008 cars:

"To compile our list of 2008 best- and worst-performing cars, we looked at five factors, all pertaining to 2008 model-year vehicles: the number of recalls to date, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) database; reliability ratings from Consumer Reports; depreciation, in the form of Automotive Leasing Guide's (ALG) star ratings; safety from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) crash test ratings; and fuel economy and annual fuel costs from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

Fuel costs were based on AAA's national regular gas price of $2.42 and unleaded at $2.60."

Best
1. Toyota Prius
2. Honda CR-V
3. Honda Civic
4. Toyota RAV-4
5. Toyota Camry Hybrid
6. Honda Accord
7. Lexus IS250
8. Toyota Yaris
9. Scion xD
10. Acura TSX

Worst
1. Dodge Avenger
2. Chrysler Sebring
3. Jeep Grand Cherokee
4. Nissan Xterra
5. Hyundai Santa Fe
6. Ford Explorer
7. Jeep Liberty
8. Saturn Vue
9. Hyundai Vera Cruz
10. GMC Acadia

http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/11/0..._1107cars.html

Now whether or not you agree with the list, which obviously put a lot of weight on fuel economy and resale value, having cars like the Avenger out there that's had 6 recalls on it in the first year alone can sour people to the entire domestic market.

Threxx

The big difference here is that GM made good trucks SUVs for the longest time and good cars only in the last few years. Toyota made good cars for the longest time and good trucks and SUVs for the last few years. (there are exceptions in both cases, but still...)

So when gas prices got high, guess what happened? GM's bread and butter SUV sales dropped through the floor. So did Toyota's but they weren't anywhere remotely close to as dependent on them as GM was.

Then consumers, faced with high gas prices, were left choosing between established high quality Toyotas and supposedly recently turned high quality but still unproven GM cars.

It sucks to say it but there was a lesson to be learned in the story of the boy that cried wolf. GM is in the situation it's in right now because it sold so many people so many crappy cars over the last 20-30 years. The moral of that story plays out perfectly in this scenario because maybe GM really is finally putting out great cars now (I for one believe they are, at least in some of their models, putting out best in class vehicles like the Malibu and CTS), but again, it takes time to regain trust... not just a few good cars in a few short years.

hey01

I know, this blows my mind! I do not understand it.

super83Z

Instead of saying that the transmission was so bad they HAD to extend the warranty, why isn't it GM living up to its commitment? The negativity towards the big 3 is mind boggling. Gm could have said go **** yourself and deal with it. Toyota lives up to their commitment with the 95-00 Tacoma and they are praised, but when GM does it they are bashed. How does that work?

Klypto

for our country's sake... i hope GM and the others pull through.

Robert_Nashville

Do you have any proof that GM would honor the warranty on any Corvette (ZR1 or other version) if the owner obviously violated the instructions and was previously warned that taking specific actions would void the warranty?

Maybe they would...but I would not assume that they would.

Projectz28

I agree. Seems like everywhere I turn someone is trashing american cars.

I have an 05 Yukon... been great since I bought it but a few problems. Wiring harness was loose in the headliner causing a rattle. Turned out the clip holding it broke. The clip was made in China.

The DVD player crapped out 3 days after the factory warranty expired. Oh did I mention that the DVD player was made by Panasonic?

Other than that no problems at all. 30k miles and all I ave done is change oil and put gas in it.

My wifes 01 Carolla has a dash back light out, 4 sets of breaks, 2 rotors, an alternator and 2 electrical problems thet left her stranded with a no start. Its got 69k on it. Its not bad because its paid for and its good on gas when its $4 a gallon. But now that the priceis normal again we use the Yukon all the time and fillt it for $40. IMO if I want to drive an appartment on wheels and I live in the US I should be able to do so.

I'm pro american and I try to buy only Made in the USA.

Maybe our cars are not as good but 99% of the items recalled here are made in foreign countries.

SCNGENNFTHGEN

Somewhere along the line people started listening to folks that know about toasters, when considering their new vehicle purchases! My friend has an 07 Yukon, which has been great. They love it, I've seen some great mpg in it, that if I post here, I'll surely be called a names!! Same goes for the 07 Avalanche my other friend has! I've driven both quite a bit, and they are simply all around awesome vehicles...

flowmotion

So is it hip to hate American movies? American music? American computers? American ipods? How about American planes or boats? I'm honestly struggling here to think of any American product that is "hated" beyond the historically substandard cars.

Realize that the endless flag-waving and impinging on people's patriotism is a major reason the public has completely tuned-out Detroit. And the arrogance of this attitude while they are going onto the public dole is unbelievable.