GM to Kill Pontiac Monday?
04-26-2009, 06:48 PM
#76
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Location: Roseville, MI, USA
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And here...we....go.
MEDIA ADVISORY: GM President and CEO Fritz Henderson to Update Media on Revised GM Viability Plan
Detroit, Mich.(NYSE: GM) - General Motors President and CEO Fritz Henderson will host a press conference on Monday, April 27, to update the media on GM's revised viability plan.
The press conference will run from 9 to 10 a.m. EDT in the Renaissance Conference Center located in Tower 300, Level 2, of the Renaissance Center in downtown Detroit.
In addition to Henderson, Ray Young, GM executive vice president and CFO; Troy Clarke, group vice president and president, GM North America; and Mark LaNeve, GMNA vice president, vehicles sales, servicing and marketing, will be available for questions.
The satellite feed for the press conference is:
Satellite: AMC 15
Transponder: K3
Downlink: 11740 Vertical
Audio: 6.2/6.8
Analog, Ku Band
A listen and Q&A line will be available for media:
800-288-8975 (U.S.)
+1-612-332-0228 (international/caller-paid)
No access code is required
Detroit, Mich.(NYSE: GM) - General Motors President and CEO Fritz Henderson will host a press conference on Monday, April 27, to update the media on GM's revised viability plan.
The press conference will run from 9 to 10 a.m. EDT in the Renaissance Conference Center located in Tower 300, Level 2, of the Renaissance Center in downtown Detroit.
In addition to Henderson, Ray Young, GM executive vice president and CFO; Troy Clarke, group vice president and president, GM North America; and Mark LaNeve, GMNA vice president, vehicles sales, servicing and marketing, will be available for questions.
The satellite feed for the press conference is:
Satellite: AMC 15
Transponder: K3
Downlink: 11740 Vertical
Audio: 6.2/6.8
Analog, Ku Band
A listen and Q&A line will be available for media:
800-288-8975 (U.S.)
+1-612-332-0228 (international/caller-paid)
No access code is required
04-26-2009, 07:11 PM
#77
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 929
No arguments there. And it was a failure of imagination and leadership, not a shortage of hardware.
Imagine if John DeLorean were around and Rick Wagoner told him, " John, we're going to give you the best W-car ever, you'll have access to the Holden Monaro and Commodore to do with as you please, we'll create a new 2 seater sportscar architecture for you to use and you'll get exclusive use of a coupe and convertible version of Epsilon, you'll also get a manual trans version - again, exclusively. Now, go make a Pontiac Division out of that"
How do you think DeLorean would do?
Imagine if John DeLorean were around and Rick Wagoner told him, " John, we're going to give you the best W-car ever, you'll have access to the Holden Monaro and Commodore to do with as you please, we'll create a new 2 seater sportscar architecture for you to use and you'll get exclusive use of a coupe and convertible version of Epsilon, you'll also get a manual trans version - again, exclusively. Now, go make a Pontiac Division out of that"
How do you think DeLorean would do?
That nails the situation perfectly.
What could have been...
04-26-2009, 10:15 PM
#79
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This goes back to...Pontiac started to have issues when they softened the styling. All the hot old Pontiac's were over the top, and very expressive. GTO's with hood tachs, Firebirds with screeming chickens on the hood. If you look at the sales...as soon as Pontiac killed the older names and toned down the styling, sales fell off a cliff. I remember C&D put in their magazine something along the lines that the last gen Bonneville "Looked like something sketched by a hormone ridden teenage boy in detention"...and used it as a negative. I remember thinking..hell..thats how I want all my cars to look!
I also remember that when they retired names like the Grand Am, they did so because they thought those vehicles had a "negative" image in the mind of the consumer. Yet the dumbed down cars sold half the volume. The Grand Am was like found money for GM because mechanically it was every bit as lame as the Malibu, but because it was overstyled and looked like it could eat a Mustang alive (to the uneducated), it sold well. The G6 by comparision is a last gen Malibu in expressionless jelly bean form. It may be a blank canvas...but apparently no one felt like painting it. The couple should have been the real winner...but it's softness, and stolen from a Camry Solara taillights kill any intention of that. I thought the car would do well if they made the upper version the WRX competitor they initially planned and it created a performance halo..but once those were cancelled..it was doomed to rental fleets.
The 1997-2002 Grand Prix was a universally great looking car on the outside, and at the time the best performing FWD sedan you could buy. That was enough for people to over look the cheesy interior and only school GM ness about it. By the time the 04 Grand Prix came out..they dropped the ball on the redesign. The exterior went from universally appealing to VERY polarizing and questionable. On top of that, it still had a below average interior, was slower than the last gen, and no longer the best performing car in it's class. They tried to fix this with the GXP..but all they did is amplify the issues with an even uglier grill and TOO much power to really be manageable. Grand Am and Grand Prix at one point accounted for almost 400K units a year. In it's place you have the G6 and G8, which may move 100K units. The issue is not hard to comprehend.
In the case of the G6 and 2004+ Grand Prix I also really think they were eaten alive by the new Altima, and Madza 6 that came around the same time...and moved into the exitement business. Though those cars were not visually exciting in say the Grand Am way...they were better cars than any GM midsized sedan and more expressive than say a Camry or Accord..
I also remember that when they retired names like the Grand Am, they did so because they thought those vehicles had a "negative" image in the mind of the consumer. Yet the dumbed down cars sold half the volume. The Grand Am was like found money for GM because mechanically it was every bit as lame as the Malibu, but because it was overstyled and looked like it could eat a Mustang alive (to the uneducated), it sold well. The G6 by comparision is a last gen Malibu in expressionless jelly bean form. It may be a blank canvas...but apparently no one felt like painting it. The couple should have been the real winner...but it's softness, and stolen from a Camry Solara taillights kill any intention of that. I thought the car would do well if they made the upper version the WRX competitor they initially planned and it created a performance halo..but once those were cancelled..it was doomed to rental fleets.
The 1997-2002 Grand Prix was a universally great looking car on the outside, and at the time the best performing FWD sedan you could buy. That was enough for people to over look the cheesy interior and only school GM ness about it. By the time the 04 Grand Prix came out..they dropped the ball on the redesign. The exterior went from universally appealing to VERY polarizing and questionable. On top of that, it still had a below average interior, was slower than the last gen, and no longer the best performing car in it's class. They tried to fix this with the GXP..but all they did is amplify the issues with an even uglier grill and TOO much power to really be manageable. Grand Am and Grand Prix at one point accounted for almost 400K units a year. In it's place you have the G6 and G8, which may move 100K units. The issue is not hard to comprehend.
In the case of the G6 and 2004+ Grand Prix I also really think they were eaten alive by the new Altima, and Madza 6 that came around the same time...and moved into the exitement business. Though those cars were not visually exciting in say the Grand Am way...they were better cars than any GM midsized sedan and more expressive than say a Camry or Accord..
No arguments there. And it was a failure of imagination and leadership, not a shortage of hardware.
Imagine if John DeLorean were around and Rick Wagoner told him, " John, we're going to give you the best W-car ever, you'll have access to the Holden Monaro and Commodore to do with as you please, we'll create a new 2 seater sportscar architecture for you to use and you'll get exclusive use of a coupe and convertible version of Epsilon, you'll also get a manual trans version - again, exclusively. Now, go make a Pontiac Division out of that"
How do you think DeLorean would do?
Imagine if John DeLorean were around and Rick Wagoner told him, " John, we're going to give you the best W-car ever, you'll have access to the Holden Monaro and Commodore to do with as you please, we'll create a new 2 seater sportscar architecture for you to use and you'll get exclusive use of a coupe and convertible version of Epsilon, you'll also get a manual trans version - again, exclusively. Now, go make a Pontiac Division out of that"
How do you think DeLorean would do?
Last edited by formula79; 04-26-2009 at 10:29 PM.
04-26-2009, 10:20 PM
#80
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04-27-2009, 02:52 AM
#81
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Imagine if John DeLorean were around and Rick Wagoner told him, " John, we're going to give you the best W-car ever, you'll have access to the Holden Monaro and Commodore to do with as you please, we'll create a new 2 seater sportscar architecture for you to use and you'll get exclusive use of a coupe and convertible version of Epsilon, you'll also get a manual trans version - again, exclusively. Now, go make a Pontiac Division out of that"
04-27-2009, 04:12 AM
#82
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Location: Santa Clara, CA
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No arguments there. And it was a failure of imagination and leadership, not a shortage of hardware.
Imagine if John DeLorean were around and Rick Wagoner told him, " John, we're going to give you the best W-car ever, you'll have access to the Holden Monaro and Commodore to do with as you please, we'll create a new 2 seater sportscar architecture for you to use and you'll get exclusive use of a coupe and convertible version of Epsilon, you'll also get a manual trans version - again, exclusively. Now, go make a Pontiac Division out of that"
How do you think DeLorean would do?
Imagine if John DeLorean were around and Rick Wagoner told him, " John, we're going to give you the best W-car ever, you'll have access to the Holden Monaro and Commodore to do with as you please, we'll create a new 2 seater sportscar architecture for you to use and you'll get exclusive use of a coupe and convertible version of Epsilon, you'll also get a manual trans version - again, exclusively. Now, go make a Pontiac Division out of that"
How do you think DeLorean would do?
Corollary question. Ask 70s DeLorean whether he'd do better selling the best W-car, economy 2 seater sports car, Holden, and manual trans Epsilon as Chevrolets or as Pontiacs?
Among today's 20-50 year old non-enthusiasts, I think that Chevrolet probably has better brand definition and reputation than Pontiac does. So maybe you give those cars to the dealers that can sell the most of them?
I was listening to NPR WE Sunday, and the host admitted that her impression of Pontiac was that they were "middle aged ... cars that families drove". The Pontiac historian corrected her that they were sporty cars.
Then you have the problem that none of today's Pontiac nameplates were around in 2000. I went to a car show today, and saw lots of great Pontiacs from the 60s and 70s. I didn't see G-anythings, Vibes, Torrents, or Solstices. Outside of enthusiasts, no one knows what the Pontiac models are. It's like a new brand, and it takes a lot of money and time to establish a new brand.
Look at Toyota, still selling Corollas. Camrys date back 25 years. Chevy still has Camaros, Corvettes, Malibus, and Impalas.
04-27-2009, 05:12 AM
#83
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60s DeLorean or 80s DeLorean?
Corollary question. Ask 70s DeLorean whether he'd do better selling the best W-car, economy 2 seater sports car, Holden, and manual trans Epsilon as Chevrolets or as Pontiacs?
Among today's 20-50 year old non-enthusiasts, I think that Chevrolet probably has better brand definition and reputation than Pontiac does. So maybe you give those cars to the dealers that can sell the most of them?
I was listening to NPR WE Sunday, and the host admitted that her impression of Pontiac was that they were "middle aged ... cars that families drove". The Pontiac historian corrected her that they were sporty cars.
Then you have the problem that none of today's Pontiac nameplates were around in 2000. I went to a car show today, and saw lots of great Pontiacs from the 60s and 70s. I didn't see G-anythings, Vibes, Torrents, or Solstices. Outside of enthusiasts, no one knows what the Pontiac models are. It's like a new brand, and it takes a lot of money and time to establish a new brand.
Look at Toyota, still selling Corollas. Camrys date back 25 years. Chevy still has Camaros, Corvettes, Malibus, and Impalas.
Corollary question. Ask 70s DeLorean whether he'd do better selling the best W-car, economy 2 seater sports car, Holden, and manual trans Epsilon as Chevrolets or as Pontiacs?
Among today's 20-50 year old non-enthusiasts, I think that Chevrolet probably has better brand definition and reputation than Pontiac does. So maybe you give those cars to the dealers that can sell the most of them?
I was listening to NPR WE Sunday, and the host admitted that her impression of Pontiac was that they were "middle aged ... cars that families drove". The Pontiac historian corrected her that they were sporty cars.
Then you have the problem that none of today's Pontiac nameplates were around in 2000. I went to a car show today, and saw lots of great Pontiacs from the 60s and 70s. I didn't see G-anythings, Vibes, Torrents, or Solstices. Outside of enthusiasts, no one knows what the Pontiac models are. It's like a new brand, and it takes a lot of money and time to establish a new brand.
Look at Toyota, still selling Corollas. Camrys date back 25 years. Chevy still has Camaros, Corvettes, Malibus, and Impalas.
But it's really about the car itself. Introduce a compelling design, like the G8, and all the rest (name recognition, catchy name, new name, or heritage name) will take care of itself. The Solstice for example, has made its own following. Who cares, if the clueless NPR announcer doesn't know what a Pontiac is? Pontiacs shouldn't be for the clueless masses (those folks should go buy Cobalts and Civics, and of course the almighty Prius). When Pontiac comes back, I believe it will be a small niche for those who actually know and understand affordable, distinctive performance cars - not mass scale 'wannabe' cars like the G6 was.
Less like this...
And more like this
04-27-2009, 09:24 AM
#85
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G8 also should have launched as both a coupe and a sedan. I realize there wasn't money for it, but the sedan is doing decently and I think a coupe would as well. Whether you called it GTO or just a G8 coupe it would have been a cool car.
04-27-2009, 09:37 AM
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04-27-2009, 10:00 AM
#87
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You know what the most disgusting thing is? With a years worth of supply sitting on lots right now, there's an extremely high chance that the last new Pontiac ever sold in the U.S. will be a G3. Talk about an ignoble end.
04-27-2009, 10:05 AM
#88
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- Saab/Hummer/Saturn - production ends in 2009 -- Pontiac by 2010.
- Dealer body goes from 6208 to 3605 -- 42% reduction - dealers will be told by end of May.
- Another 12000 plus jobs going away. (salaried only, additional whitecollar cutback to be announced)
- Thirteen nameplates eliminated -- 34 left.
04-27-2009, 11:00 AM
#89
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GM will have like 5% market share by the end of 2010. 
Without Pontiac it would be really hard for me to see myself in any GM car save Corvette, Camaro, or CTS. And I wonder how long they can keep Buick when practically nobody in my age group (20's) would think about buying them and the fact that it doesn't make sense to have a brand dedicated to "not quite luxury, and no real performance."
Without Pontiac it would be really hard for me to see myself in any GM car save Corvette, Camaro, or CTS. And I wonder how long they can keep Buick when practically nobody in my age group (20's) would think about buying them and the fact that it doesn't make sense to have a brand dedicated to "not quite luxury, and no real performance."
