I was not speaking for you. I was speaking for me and those like me...the guys whos asses were and are still on the line. Yeah I had opinions then I went and took a good up and close look see. And a lot of my previous opinions have changed. You dont speak for me your right, so stop speaking about patriotic/tobey keith nonsense when refering to what soldiers fight for.

 

People still do.

Don't confuse 'government-centric-solutions' as being the moral-equivalent as caring for your neighbor or someone in need. Often private charities and individuals 'directly' helping other individuals does a far better job then relying on the inefficient government to do the same job via taxation.

 

I served eight years active duty and I’ve put myself in harms way many times…I’ve seen friends killed and wounded why I was so lucky as to still be alive…I can honestly say that part of my motivation to join, even during a time of war, absolutely was to serve my country. My motivation certainly wasn’t for the few ribbons I received and it certainly wasn’t the pay that I could have equaled with a decent part-time job and it certainly wasn’t so that I could drink and pick up chicks and it wasn’t so that I would be away from my wife and family for months at a time.

Was my only motivation patriotism? No, but to read someone spouting off a gratuitous assertion that “most soldiers do not give a crap about that duty, honor, country nonsense” is insulting. If your assertion is based on personal observation then I pitty what this country has become...maybe you are just a disgruntled ex-soldier who felt as you describe and assume everyone else who serves feels the same.

In any case, you and everyone else should be very thankful that the men and women who do and have worn the uniform and have died in them (even those in the “BS non combat jobs”) were patriots and did their “job”.

 

Among the ranks of the guys who eat dirt for a living there is a resentment against the rest of the military that does not go out into the "sh1+". Yet it is these "soldiers" who laud patriotism as if it were some sacred virtue. Did I have different beliefs when I joined during a time of war? Yes. Am I totally different now? Yes. Why because the reality of war erased that crap.

Am I disgruntled? No. Iraq was an experience that has changed my life and I am grateful for that. I wish everyone could share the same felling of humility and clarity that I feel. But I can honestly say with terrible conviction that that choochbag Toby Keith pseudo patriotism nonsense is just that, nonsense.

It does not take much for someone observant enough to see that the ones praising how good it is to serve and die for love of country are full of crap. It is a guarantee that your going getting ****ed as soon as some "leader" opens their mouth to tell you how great you are and your doing great things.

 

Hmmm....Pat Tillman gave his life for his country....so moved by 9/11/01 he left a spot on an NFL roster to defend us.

So I guess that's one guy who did it for the right reasons anyway. Personally and respectfully, as I realize I speak from no experience whatsoever and have no clue about the horrors of combat, if people are getting into the armed forces to as you state "drink and bang chicks" I really think they could find a better avenue to do so. At least you wouldn't be putting your life on the line by getting dressed up in your clubbing clothes and heading out to the local "meat market" on a Saturday night.

 

Ponykillr,

I find it extraordinairly sad to find that someone who has worn the uniform has such a low opinion of those he servied with and, apparently, of his own motivations.

If those who serve today really do so for the reasons you cite...if they see nothing of value in their service beyond a paycheck then maybe it is time for this country to be relagated to the history books and die a quiet death so that some more deserving country...some more deserving people can take its place.

I guess being concerned about where former American companies like Ford or GM get their parts is pretty pointless.

 

What ever dude. How about reading my posts next time. BTW Pat Tillmans brother who joined first and served as a Ranger was so moved by his experience he has this to say now: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-.../1723217/posts

As off topic as this has become all I have to say is this. I am glad that I joined up and went over (more than once) and I am glad that I never have to be in the Army again. I am glad because the military is one of the most F-uped organizations i have ever had the displeasure of being a member of. Sorry but that is the truth.

Robert Nashville dont kill yourself yet. Its not that bad. And remember that being a critic does not mean that I am against it. It means something is very wrong. When your CO does not know that Iraq is an insurgency by 2005 and your 1SG does not give a crap about winning it doesn't take long to get frustrated. Do a few tours and you will see the problems and you wont be so ardent about waiving the flag around like a 10 year old boy.

 

We have 5 living vets in my immediate family - 2 lifetimers with 25+ years.
Including the dead, we surpass a dozen.
We span WWII, Korea, Nam, Gulf I, and Gulf II. We have purple hearts and they were not for cut fingers in the mess hall.
We've served on sub-tenders and aircraft carriers, we've flown out of Virginia, Spain, Germany, Australia, Hawaii.
We've been based in Alabama, Nort Carolina, South Carolina, California, Wisconsin, and Virginia.
I can't add all the years up, but we are well over 100 man-years in service of this country in my family.

I'm sorry to hear that you have lost your patriotism (if you had any) because of your sour experiences. NOBODY said the military was a playground. Of course it's full of sh1+-eating... there's ALWAYS a man above you with a chip on his shoulder, but it does NOT undermine thepurpose of the organization, nor should it undermine the true reason for serving.

Let's agree to disagree and let it go. You have your reasons, I have mine.

 

I'm not confused - not at all.
I do not think government is the solution to anything but regulating our borfers (people and goods), because INDIVIDUALS can't do it.

As for changing this tide of flow of jobs offshore... that is 100% the responsibility of the individual people in this country. If we stopped buying the Chinese sh1+ and the shelves fill up with it, sooner or later they will stop making it and trying to bring it here. I am 100% sure of it.

But as long as we continue to relent, and eventually buy it because the price is just soooo cheap, it will continue to come, and our jobs will continue to go.

No confusion whatsoever on my part!

 

A guy I work with always tells me "You need to surround yourself with a better class of loser." I have no idea who you talk to, but I rarely came across anything like that where I was at. But Iwill admit, we had our share of idiots. Just like everywhere else. But for the most part I only got that feeling out of the guys who really didnt want to be there. We called those guys the "ten percenters". They give about 10% effort and they make up maybe 10% of Marines. I wouldnt call them "most" by any stretch. And to state that that "most dont care even if we win", thats sad that you have seen it that way. But I think you are way off base.

 

The opportunity to 'prevent' outsourcing to China has already passed us by since that was the job of the American consumer of the 'last' 30 years. This explains why many advertising campaigns promoted "MADE in THE USA" during the last 30 years while they continued to outsource sub-assemblies and individual part manufacturing to China until it has reached the point that it's no longer 'really' made in the US. Outsourcing to China is nothing new and has been going on for decades, but now that the consequences are finally starting to become rather apparent people are acting 'surprised'.

There are natural economic changes that will eventually bring manufacturing back to the US over the next few decades.

1. Declining US dollar makes US goods cheaper for the rest of the world to buy.

2. An increasing Chinese Yuan will continue to make Chinese goods 'less' cheap then they are today.

3. Automation and robotics continues to become cheaper and more reliable and will continue to remove the high cost of US labor to produce items.

4. Baby-boomers who have been the economic driving force of the US economy and therefore the global economy for the last 30 years will begin to buy fewer items as they refocus on retirement, hobbies, and healthcare needs. As the baby-boomers cut back on purchases it will cause many low-cost manufacturers to shut down since the high volume they need to survive will begin to dwindle and the new high-tech local niche manufacturers will begin to rise in their place (this certainly won't happen overnight). As an example of this Wal-mart is now requiring all its suppliers to cut-back the size of their retail packaging by 5% within the next few years. Wal-mart is doing this to cut down shipping costs and so it can free up additional floor space to increase the size of its pharmacy department (and other needs of the elderly) which they expect to be the biggest growth/profit generator over the next few decades.

In fact Wal-Marts sales have been so bad lately that they will be starting their BLACK FRIDAY sales next week - http://money.cnn.com/2006/10/30/news...ion=2006103013

 

In fact, I agree with this concept - our window of opportunity has indeed passed. It was closing anyways, but it was basically slammed shut when NAFTA was signed, and it has not showed any sign of opening again.
However, that doesn't mean it's OK to spend money on "anything cheap", regardless of where it was made - I think we still need to be consciencious shoppers.





I kind of disagree a little bit here. All indications that I see tell that baby-boomers are going to be spending like crazy - and in fact already are. They are what is driving the price of classic musclecars through the roof. The housing industry (retirement villas, beach homes, downsizing due to empty nests, etc) is also being floated right now with retirement money. Travel trailers and RV sales are up on baby-boomers right now. Certainly the pharmaceutical industry sees the growth as you note below. Medical industry and services (hospital bed makers, therapeutics, rehab equipment, exercise machines, etc) are in growth, and so on.
I'm sure there are some boomers who don't have the big nest egg to blow, but there are tons who have to cash-out IRA's at 59.5 years, or have to opt for cash-out or 20-year pay plans in their retirement accounts at their jobs (my mom just had to do this last year in fact - Wachovia Bank and Trust for 31 years). Consider, you have a house that's paid for, no kids - empty nest, no college to pay for, you get SocSec, a retirement check, and you just had to cash-out your IRAs for about $200-300k after fees. What are you gonna do with all that cash?!?! I plan to go racing/traveling with mine when my turn comes!

BEST NEWS OF MY DAY!!!
Sadly though, I can just see hords of people running to Wal-Mart with cash-in-hand because they are having such a sale.
It's going to end up resulting in Wal-Mart putting even MORE pressure on suppliers to reduce cost and offshore their manufacturing. Catch-22 I guess.

 

True, but the products that show the largest growth potential in the future aren't the same products that are flying off the shelves today. Like I've said in other previous threads I believe the healthcare sector is where most of the economic growth within the US will come from as long as the government doesn't take it over and destroy it.

True, and those elderly folks who don't blow their retirement nest egg will have a pretty nice inheritance to pass on to their kids so they could blow it on muscle cars