BINGO!!!

Let me be even more crude and less politically correct than you...
What we are seeing is a bunch of companies that are not satisfied making a decent profit WHILE employing the American public and financing America's way of life and infrastructure... instead, these companies seek to MAXIMIZE profits (a.k.a. "greed") at the expense of the American working class, their families, and the infrastructure they create/support.

The mass-movement of so many companies has created a tide that is now carrying the best-intentioned companies with it. Even if a company wants to stay in the US and make a go of it, they are being forced to go offshore or buy offshore components to compete and stay alive. THIS is what really sucks.

Now, if a company is building offshore facilities to supply local consumers and the local economy in the region of the plant - I'm pretty OK with that.
It's when we close a profitable plant here in the US, go 1/2 way around the world and build a new plant, move the old equipment from the closed plant to the new one, hire labor at pennies-per-hour, then send the parts/product BACK to the original market/consumer - THAT'S what pizzes me off.

As I've said before - we should not only be shareholders in "the company", but also shareholders in our communities and our country as well. I'm just absolutely fed-up with this "maximize the return to the shareholders" BS excuse that companies use to justify moving offshore.

 

You better believe it!!!

I've posted about my "conflict" a few times already.
It boils down to this for me...
(fortunately) The products my equipment is producing is going to an end-consumer market that is over 80% Chinese. My product is typically not coming back to the USA or Europe.
So my "stuff" is going for "incremental sales" in China's expanding consumer market instead of just making something cheaper to send back home.

The other side of my conflict is that it gives me a chance to see how things really are in China. Words can not describe how different things are in China compared to here. This is what brings my passion for humanity to the forefront. I can't describe to you how dangerous worksites are over there, how unhealthy the workplace is allowed to be, how basic they exist and just how little they are given to live on. Life is truely a "consumable" there - people die every day and nobody slows down to acknowledge it.

12 miners die in an accident here and it makes national news and laws get passed to prevent it from happening again. 26 die in a mine in Jiangsu province and it's a 5-line sidebar on page 23 of the local paper. People die in Chinese mines EVERY DAY - it's an insignificant thing.
Our contractor paid about $4700 USD to the widow of a worker who died from a fall on our project last year, and we had a replacement next day.
Dump your oil wherever you like.
Vehicles spew fumes like crazy.
MSDS must be some kind of food additive like MSG over there.
The ocean is stained with oil and pollution - visible from 3-5000 ft from the plane while flying into Shanghai.
Rivers and cannals are loaded with trash.
People pee and poop in the streets, under bridges, and everywhere else.
Healthcare is a luxury - not shared by most. Companies are investing in healthcare for their skilled labor ONLY because it's cheaper than training replacements.

I can go on and on, but the point is that going there has made me even more adamant about human rights and environmental responsibility. We should only be trading with other nations that share our positions on human rights and environmental responsibility. Trading or business with nations that are blatantly abusing their people and natural resources is a travesty, and is apprehensible IMO. It makes us no better than the country that is abusive because we are participating - even facilitating - that type of behavior.

So I come home from a project overseas with more drive and desire to make us competitive here in the States.
I'm just thankful that I am building new equipment and new facilities for China, instead of closing US plants and moving existing equipment (and the related jobs) from here.
Still, it would be better if we were building new plants here, creating new jobs here, and selling the product to foreign markets, but I guess those days are gone for the time being.

That's my story... and as meager as that "excuse" is, it makes the difference between living with myself and having to find another job!

 

You may not like the shareholders excuse, I may not like the shareholders excuse...but it is what it is. A corporation's #1 responsibility is to its stockholders. Not to its employees. Not even to its country (unless we're talking about defense contractors or something).

Companies are in business to make money and maximize that profit. That is their purpose. The avenues they use to get there may be disgusting to you and I....but again....until Wall Street suddenly grows a heart and is willing to sacrifice some profit for the American worker (yeah right!) this isn't going to change.

 

AMEN.

Let me put a new spin on this that many have never considered...
When you go into China to do business, you basically "partner" with their government. Their government gets a slice of everything.
(In fact, for every 10 employees your company hires and employs making "something", you MUST employ a "government employee" that can be used for anything you want. We have a small army that sweeps the streets and sidewalks by hand, does landscaping, mowing and such, and pick up trash inside our compound - these are our "government employees".) We have allowed this to happen, because we (American companies) are so desperate to get there that we accept these conditions, if nothing else because we can pay these "fees" and still come out ahead. It's like we just ignore the bad things because the good things make up for it.

Now, when you deal with their government, you will pay. They don't pay you anything. They set tarriffs and taxes on a whim. I posted links where they decided to go up on taxes on vehicles with a 2.0L engine by 17-25%... they decided in mid-March, and the law took effect on April 1!

It seems like if I stand way back and look at the overall picture, I see American companies in persuit of profits, dealing with Chinese companies seeking profits, Chinese people that want money bad enough to risk life and limb for it, and a corrupt government that also wants money. The one peice of the puzzle not in play is our own US government, bringing sanity and morality to the picture by regulating what American companies can do overseas. Now I'm not advocating 100% regulation of all activity, but right now we are basically doing nothing to control or curb this runaway freight train that is the Chinese manufacturing sector, regardless of laws or ethics that are being annihilated in this "trade relationship".
If US companies are paying-off Chinese customs offices for preferencial treatment - that's wrong.
If US companies are allowing chemical dumping or environmental abuse in their Chinese facilities - that's wrong.
If US companies are exposing Chinese workers to unsafe work practices or equipment - that's wrong.
You get the picture. (BTW, I have seen all of the above and more - first hand.)
I grant you we can't regulate a person or business from opening a branch overseas, but our ports and government can D@MN-SURE regulate products coming into our country. And as long as we keep letting it in, and buying it off the shelves at Wal-Mart, it's gonna keep happening.

So as Guy eluded... it's not their fault.
We Americans have lost sight of living morally, sensibly, within our means, and thinking about the future... instead, we live in "today", we want to make as much money as possible, spend as little as possible, and don't care about the recourse of unwise investing - as long as we are personally making money.
Problem is, we continue to live this way as individuals even if it means selling our collective future to do it.

 

That right there basically sums up what is happening to this county. I am 25 and can see it, I can only imagine what people who have been around longer think when they see what is going on.

 

You are correct - no argument from me.

I guess your statement rings true - Wall Street DOES need to grow a heart. And maybe a brain too - Wall Street will eventually topple too if there are no free-enterprise capitalists who want to use Wall Street for investing or financial analyses. "They" (the bankers, analysts, investors, brokers, etc) are not exempt from the turmoil, and in fact they bring nothing to the party in so far as value is concerned... they "make" no sellable product, they only talk about what others are doing and act on behalf of people with money.

Speaking of growing a heart - it's just lovely to give a $-million to charity, but in today's environment the actual gesture is over-ridden by the underlying tax-credit that was actually what the company was really after.
Do away with tax credits and see how many companies maintain their positions supporting community programs, scholarships, charities, the United Way, etc.

I personally would not have any problem whatsoever if any of the companies I hold stock in were to come out and say, "We have chosen to keep our domestic plants open instead of relocating to China, but our returns will stay at 8% instead of rising to 20% as we had hoped."
I personally would not have a problem swallowing an 8% return this year - or any year FTM.

BUT - I certainly understand that many (in fact most) people would jump ship and sell their stock, running to find the 20% return option. Investing has become purely a numbers game and has lost the responsibility factor - nobody cares HOW their money gets multiplied, so long as it gets multiplied.
(It reminds me of working for Ford, but buying a new Toyota to drive, then b1+ching about your job being cut, ya know?)

That is where I draw a morality line (as noted in my last post). Americans have become GREEDY... so greedy that they will sell their own future for more profits today. ANYTHING for money.
Never in history - anywhere I know of - has greed resulted in collective good happening for mankind, and I doubt this will be the first example of it either.

It's a sad state of affairs.

 

I read this to my Dad and he said, "They always told us as kids that one day China would take us over without firing a bullet."

Interesting comment from a 67-year old.

Thanks for your passion and post here, BTW. I like all the perspective I can get.

 

I can name an important one

CAPITALISM= an economic system based on private ownership of capital.

Most people tend to put the welfare of 'themselves' and their own family above those they don't know.

In the end individuals make better moral and financial decisions for themselves then any monopolistic government can when it tries to impose a 'one size fits all' approach to almost everything it does.

Don't ever expect much from government since it's inherently a large, dumb, inefficient, non-innovating, amoeba-like creature that will suck the life and creativity out of its people when ever it has a chance.

You can't honestly reduce all American individuals into a single-minded collective hive. When people make grand 'all-incompasing' decisions based on "collective' thought rather then letting individuals make unique choices for themselves it will most likely lead to some sort of catastrophic failure.

There's no doubt in 'my mind' there are serious economic and environmental problems facing us, but government centric solutions tend to do more harm then good.

 

NO DOUBT. Don't disagree a bit with you.
But that doesn't make it right.

And therein lies the lion's share of the problem. Those people are now running the government, large industry, and essentially the country, under that exact mindset.
They are running it for their own benefit, not the benefit of the masses.

If our predecessors and forefathers had thought this way, most of us would not be here, because the USA would not exist as we know it today.
Do soldiers fight for their own personal benefit, the combat pay, the medals, or do they do it FOR THEIR FRIENDS, FAMILY, NEIGHBORS, AND COUNTRY?
Do they fight for the issue at hand on the battlefield (who owns this acre?), or do they fight for the AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE, PEACE, and FREEDOM?

You can have just as much influence in foreign policy by voting with your wallet as you can fighting in a war, and the motivations should really not be that different between the two IMO. You see, there are still a few of us living in this country who think outside our own bank accounts, though we are falling in numbers quickly, and have long been a minority.

One last thing - with regard to capitalism... I think by far it is the best system in the world because it motivates people to be creative and productive, but even the best system is not without faults.
Everything can be misused or abused...
Guns invented and intended to provide food and security for humankind has been used to kill, rob, rape, and pilliage.
Cars intended to make us more productive and close gaps with our neighbors are used as weapons and bombs to kill.
A common knife invented to aid in the butchering of meat and vegetables is often used to mame and kill.
The point here being that in all cases, a good thing is only a good thing when used by a responsible person in the manner it was intended.
The responsibility ALWAYS falls back on the user - capitalism included.
As voluntary practitioners of the capitalistic society, we burden ourselves with the responsibility of using our money, resources, and policy to the betterment of our neighbors, our families, our states, and our country. In my eyes, it's no different than the responsibility of driving a car... it's up to you to be alert (not drowsy), sober (not drunk), safe (not wreckless), courteous (not vengeful), and to drive in a manner that is safe and prudent for given conditions - not to mention lawful.
Same with a gun - no GUN has ever killed a person by itself... there's always a person behind it that's making it happen. A gun by itself is harmless - fear the user.
What about drug dealers... another example of capitalism at it's purest form - supply and demand. Does that make it right to go buy a dime bag because somebody wants it and another person has it for sale?

As for me, I still hold that MY PERSONAL WELFARE depends on the welfare of the country I LIVE IN, therefore it is in my best interest to be concerned about my country and my fellow man... and that means that I should buy and invest responsibly so as to provide support for that cause, not undermine it for my personal gain. For me to make $1-million at the expense of putting 15 local families out of work, into the streets, and out of school is not only the wrong decision for the short-term, but long-term as well, and no excuse whatsoever can dissuade me from that premise.

Back to the main topic of the thread, I have heard today that much of the sourcing Ford is looking to do will be parts heading to Mexico and the USA to go into cars for sale on North American continent. This saddens me. I was hoping it would be local sourcing for products to be sold in China/Asian markets. You can bet that Visteon, Dorman, and numerous other companies are NOT happy about this decision.

 

Capitalism is what made this country great and capitalism is what we are loosing to today. It has been a long time coming but companies like Ford and GM had to face almost closing their doors before they could see that the American unionized worker were strangling them from the foreign competition.

Do I like seeing people loose their jobs, No. But at the same time shifts must be made if you want to afford buying or producing a product. You have to change. Its almost like another growing pain. Every time there is a shift people and business must adapt or face becoming extinct.

Bottom line greed is good. Its what keeps you on top. When you become complacent with your position in life you end up stagnate i.e. Europe for the most part. They are complacent, China is not they want to be #1. The real question is do we have the intestinal fortitude to stay #1? Sadly I think this answer is a growing No.

 

There was a time when companies first identified themselves as “American” or “British”, etc, etc, and would put their “country” first even before their profit margin…part of it was true patriotism but it was also partly because they knew if they decided to do otherwise, they would be punished by the people who buy their product.

Skip forward to today and you find that most large companies are multi-national entities that hold no significant affiliation to any one country at all (or to their workers for that matter). In fact, many of the large companies existing today are larger financially than many entire countries of the world.

GM and Ford, and many others will give lip service to being “American” all day long, even while they ship jobs to Mexico, India and China or source parts from there…I don’t say it’s all their fault but they do bear some of the responsibility.

Also bearing some of the responsibility are those who deride what’s happening while concurrently going to Wal-Mart where virtually everything for sale there is made in China!

Our existing political system is of no help in this fight – each for their own and sometimes totally opposite reasons, neither the Republicans or Democrats have a clue of what to do or any desire to do it …Democrats give a lot more lip service to it but I suspect that’s mostly to coddle the unions for their money rather than any real desire to make changes.

The result is that the United States will likely loose its middle class in the decades ahead and I can’t help but wonder just “who” is going to buy all those cars and computers and video games when only the top 10% of the population can afford them???

 

Most soldiers do not give a crap about that "duty, honor, country" nonsense. Most are not smart enough to realize the situation they are in and are there for a myriad of reasons. For most its a job and they refer to it as work. Its not glorious and most dont care even if we win. Most are more interested in How long they wont be able to drink or try to "bang" chicks due to deployment. Most would rather be shot than stay in the Army. And everyone agrees that unless you sign up to do real fighting (not some BS non combat Army MOS) your a piece of **** and should shut your mouth. That goes for the supporters and non supporters.

Trust me we dont give a ****.

 

I agree 100%.

The health of a country is based on the health of individuals and not vice-versa. If the majority of individuals make poor decisions then the country as a whole will suffer. Its the suffering/consequences related to those poor decisions that will motivate people to change their behavior and therefore make the country as a whole a better place.

Let people reap the rewards as well as the consequence of their choices and they will make better decisions in the end.

 

You couldnt be further from the truth. Read the quote in my sig. Liberty...Individual rights are the basis to a moral society. We are not simply members of a community or social bands. We are individuals connected only by the unanimous belief that liberty defines us as a union. Companies are living entities and do not belong to this collective Americans wish they were part of. You as an American stake no claim to a company you have no partial ownership in and definetly to no individual person.

 

You don't speak for me any more than I speak for you.

I DO GIVE A SH1+.

Be thankful you were born in the States... what you just wrote would have you in jail in China (if not killed).
You are entitled to your opinions and you are welcome to them.


Your entire post has nothing to do with our declaration of independence from Britain, our establishment of a Consitution, a Bill of Rights that covers every person native to this country, or the possible loss of numerous wars that could have changed the political and actual boundaries of our country completely.

MY POINT was that we could be speaking German right now and praising the Furor under rule of the Reich if it were not for the efforts of the American public at large from 1938 until 1944. There WAS a time when people cared for other people and pulled together to make good things happen for the USA.