Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Originally Posted by redzed
Sigma-based architecture has been very inflexible so far. That's why the CTS is embarrassingly close in size to the new STS. Sigma is also very expensive, expensive to the point where the Sigma-based cars have absolutely no real price advantage over German assembled BMWs. Perhaps that's why STS is wrongly pitched against the 7-series and the CTS against the 5-series.
Also, I don't see Sigma being any more or less flexible than anything else.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 917
From: Lexington, KY
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
Hmpf. And if that means our new Camaro will also resemble the philosophy behind Dodge's awkward, doofy-looking new "Charger" I'll be very enraged.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,610
From: Cincinnati, OH
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Originally Posted by redzed
Sigma-based architecture has been very inflexible so far.
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 90
From: Natchitoches, The Free State of Northern Louisiana
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Originally Posted by Z284ever
I guess, suffice to say, that some big changes are being considered. Asensio's comments are the first "official/public" evidence of what I've been hearing for months.
Put it like this.....having Holden design "Zeta" for North America looks like it's not gonna happen anymore. We may still get some Zetas eventually, (that is, a North Americanized V-car)......that is, if they're even called Zeta anymore, but maybe those would be engineered here, and perhaps be strictly W-car replacements....or maybe not, those decisions are still being discussed. Of course, Holden can export some cars to the US also.
Sigma however, fits our NA manufacturing process like a glove. It's a proven, paid for, commodity. We can build them here - no problem. If I were going to guess - this week - I'd say that there is a 50-50 chance that much of what we thought would be Zeta, may actually convert to Sigma or a Sigma variant......but again maybe not.
At any rate, GM is still serious about having a global RWD architecture, it just won't be primarily engineered by Holden. That's not to say that the upcoming VE won't happen.....just that it won't be globally integrated at this time.
Beta/Kappa. I can tell you first hand that many people at GM....even at the VERY TOP of GM would like to see it happen. Money of course is an issue. As is politics. Without naming names , there are also influential people within GM who don't want Beta. Maybe call them turf wars.
I wish that I could say that Beta was already greenlighted, but at this point, I see no evidence of that.
Which brings us all back to Sigma.
Put it like this.....having Holden design "Zeta" for North America looks like it's not gonna happen anymore. We may still get some Zetas eventually, (that is, a North Americanized V-car)......that is, if they're even called Zeta anymore, but maybe those would be engineered here, and perhaps be strictly W-car replacements....or maybe not, those decisions are still being discussed. Of course, Holden can export some cars to the US also.
Sigma however, fits our NA manufacturing process like a glove. It's a proven, paid for, commodity. We can build them here - no problem. If I were going to guess - this week - I'd say that there is a 50-50 chance that much of what we thought would be Zeta, may actually convert to Sigma or a Sigma variant......but again maybe not.
At any rate, GM is still serious about having a global RWD architecture, it just won't be primarily engineered by Holden. That's not to say that the upcoming VE won't happen.....just that it won't be globally integrated at this time.
Beta/Kappa. I can tell you first hand that many people at GM....even at the VERY TOP of GM would like to see it happen. Money of course is an issue. As is politics. Without naming names , there are also influential people within GM who don't want Beta. Maybe call them turf wars.
I wish that I could say that Beta was already greenlighted, but at this point, I see no evidence of that.
Which brings us all back to Sigma.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,600
From: Pewee Valley, KY
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Originally Posted by redzed
I
We can easily suppose that Australian engineers are about as effective and decisive as their British counterparts.
Holden can do well in "second-world" (one step up from third-world) export markets like South Africa, Brazil and the Middle East, but so far their product have been laughable in a European or Japanese context.
In any case, the Beta-platform is a project GM should have conceived 5 years ago, not 18 months ago. GM is running so late that even a production car based on the very decent Torana concept might end up being dated and uncompetitive in design and packaging by the time that it actually goes on sale.
We can easily suppose that Australian engineers are about as effective and decisive as their British counterparts.
Holden can do well in "second-world" (one step up from third-world) export markets like South Africa, Brazil and the Middle East, but so far their product have been laughable in a European or Japanese context.
In any case, the Beta-platform is a project GM should have conceived 5 years ago, not 18 months ago. GM is running so late that even a production car based on the very decent Torana concept might end up being dated and uncompetitive in design and packaging by the time that it actually goes on sale.
Holden does do pretty well in Europe it is just that Europe is home of small cars not the bigger ones that Holden produces. I bet you don't see a lot of Vauxhall Monaro's sitting on the lots.
Also how will Beta be uncompetitive or dated in a few years when NOTHING like it exists outside of GM. How many other companies use full length Hydroformed steel or aluminum frame rails on cars? None not even your mighty Nissan.
Seriously guys what are the steps to get someone banned?
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Not to get too far off topic....and I'm not saying that I have any facts, but.....
Nothing Ascensio said precludes her from referring to a FWD platform for Velite.
Nothing Ascensio said precludes her from referring to a FWD platform for Velite.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Nothing Ascensio said precludes her from referring to a FWD platform for Velite.
That would be...... fairly shocking.
Epsilon then? G6 and Saab have Epsilon verts already...
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
That would be...... fairly shocking.
Epsilon then? G6 and Saab have Epsilon verts already...
Epsilon then? G6 and Saab have Epsilon verts already...
On the other hand......it wouldn't make much of a "halo car" for Buick, IMO, so why even bother.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Exactly. Sure would be an inexpensive way to go....especially if you don't plan on selling more than 10,000 units.
On the other hand......it wouldn't make much of a "halo car" for Buick, IMO, so why even bother.
On the other hand......it wouldn't make much of a "halo car" for Buick, IMO, so why even bother.
Wow.... this really throws a potential monkey wrench into the whole thing...
I gotta honestly say that FWD for this car never even entered my mind.. but I guess it does make sense to a degree...
.
Banned
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,954
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Originally Posted by Chuck!
Do you have facts to back this, or are you assuming it is inflexible because they only put two cars and a SUV on it?
Banned
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,954
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Originally Posted by 91_z28_4me
Dude I am offended by what you said in the first part and I am not even Australian.
Originally Posted by 91_z28_4me
Holden does do pretty well in Europe it is just that Europe is home of small cars not the bigger ones that Holden produces. I bet you don't see a lot of Vauxhall Monaro's sitting on the lots.
Originally Posted by 91_z28_4me
Also how will Beta be uncompetitive or dated in a few years when NOTHING like it exists outside of GM. How many other companies use full length Hydroformed steel or aluminum frame rails on cars? None not even your mighty Nissan.
Originally Posted by 91_z28_4me
Seriously guys what are the steps to get someone banned?
Take away the claimed structural innovations and the Beta-platform is a very late attempt at the replication of Nissan's very flexible FM-platform. By the time Beta comes to market, the first of Nissan's FM cars will probably be entering their second generation.
Originally Posted by 91_z28_4me
Seriously guys what are the steps to get someone banned?
Banned
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,954
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Not to get too far off topic....and I'm not saying that I have any facts, but.....
Nothing Ascensio said precludes her from referring to a FWD platform for Velite.
Nothing Ascensio said precludes her from referring to a FWD platform for Velite.
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
That would be...... fairly shocking.
Epsilon then? G6 and Saab have Epsilon verts already...
Epsilon then? G6 and Saab have Epsilon verts already...
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,000
From: TX Med Ctr
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
That would be...... fairly shocking.
Originally Posted by redzed
I'd say the relative lack of sizing variation between the CTS/SRX/STS and packaging limitations that put the XLR on the Covette's Y-body instead of Sigma, indicate that the platform is very much lacking in "flexibility."
Banned
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,954
Re: Is this the first public sign of the "secret" GM RWD platform?
Originally Posted by HAZ-Matt
And I'd say that is because the XLR is supposed to be a high end sports car, and therefore the choice of platform says little about versatility of Sigma as opposed to Y-body's superiority in that application.
