A few thoughts about the future of RWD Performance
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Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 1,873
From: South Jersey
Originally posted by centric
2. There are some people who would like to see a company think about rewriting the value equation, rather than using threads like this to justify a higher cost. What if you could do something like a Dodge Razor with a V8 for $19k? This would force others to respond to a new pricing model, or be left behind. That's how you get market share. That's how you WIN.
2. There are some people who would like to see a company think about rewriting the value equation, rather than using threads like this to justify a higher cost. What if you could do something like a Dodge Razor with a V8 for $19k? This would force others to respond to a new pricing model, or be left behind. That's how you get market share. That's how you WIN.
!!!Did I mention
?
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,022
From: Newhall, CA USA
Razor with SRT-4 engine for 20k? Oh, yeah! That's the kind of thinking we need, not this lame justification for high prices.
I'll take TWO for the price of ONE GTO. (Wife wants one, too.)
Anyone listening?
I'll take TWO for the price of ONE GTO. (Wife wants one, too.)
Anyone listening?
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Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 781
From: Houston TX (Chicago/Evanston IL)
Same goes for solstice. There is now way putting a 5.3L alloy Gen III motor in the car would push the car into the 30k range. They could make RWD V8 cars cost the same or less than the average car. I will gladly give up a little bit of fit n finish for world class performance. My Z06 runs with a 911TT for about half the money. That porch must have some really swell interior peices to justify 50 GRAND! Give me a Solstice with cloth seats a normal radio and maybe some power windows and a/c. Thats all People will need in luxury items if the car moves as good as it's german counterparts for half the money. A Pontiac Boxer S for half the money and twice the performance!
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Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 20
From: Louisburg, NC
Watch Where You Step
Now Evil has opened a can of worms. World class performance is not what Camaro buyers are after. The driving we do bears no resemblance to what the Euroweenies do, and certainly not what those inscrutible Asians call driving. Comparing a ZO6 to a Porsche on the dragstrip will not give you a clue why someone over here would spend six figures on a car. Nor will racing an SS versus a 275 hp AWD flat-six on the quarter mile cause you to change your "lifestyle" and opt for four doors and a dash mounted shifter. Put the worms back in the can! It's the seat of your pants that will separate you from your money, your eyes and ears that cause you to take a buying decision, not just a spec sheet or time slip. We would like a V8 with rear wheel drive, from "our team", and if that's so, why even consider a car like the Solstice? If your not driving a Prelude or an RX7 now, you're not impressed by the size or the sound. Heck, there are CRX pilots now that are knocking on the 11 second door with stock bottom ends, but are you going to lose 25 pounds to fit in one for that "performance"? What I'm saying is, we want what we want, we're willing to pay a reasonable price for it, and hope the Company listens to it's loyal customers. As for me, I have my little colection of third gen Camaros going, so I'll have cars and parts to do my kind of driving for decades.
Last edited by billhrsn; Apr 11, 2003 at 06:04 AM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: Watch Where You Step
Originally posted by billhrsn
Now Evil has opened a can of worms. World class performance is not what Camaro buyers are after. The driving we do bears no resemblance to what the Euroweenies do, and certainly not what those inscrutible Asians call driving. Comparing a ZO6 to a Porsche on the dragstrip will not give you a clue why someone over here would spend six figures on a car. Nor will racing an SS versus a 275 hp AWD flat-six on the quarter mile cause you to change your "lifestyle" and opt for for doors and a dash mounted shifter. Put the worms back in the can! It's the seat of your pants that will separate you from your money, your eyes and ears that cause you to take a buying decision, not just a spec sheet or time slip. We would like a V8 with rear wheel drive, from "our team", and if that's so, why even consider a car like the Solstice? If your not driving a Prelude or an RX7 now, you're not impressed by the size or the sound. Heck, there are CRX pilots now that are knocking on the 11 second door with stock bottom ends, but are you going to lose 25 pounds to fit in one for that "performance"? What I'm saying is, we want what we want, we're willing to pay a reasonable price for it, and hope the Company listens to it's loyal customers. As for me, I have my little colection of third gen Camaros going, so I'll have cars and parts to do my kind of driving for decades.
Now Evil has opened a can of worms. World class performance is not what Camaro buyers are after. The driving we do bears no resemblance to what the Euroweenies do, and certainly not what those inscrutible Asians call driving. Comparing a ZO6 to a Porsche on the dragstrip will not give you a clue why someone over here would spend six figures on a car. Nor will racing an SS versus a 275 hp AWD flat-six on the quarter mile cause you to change your "lifestyle" and opt for for doors and a dash mounted shifter. Put the worms back in the can! It's the seat of your pants that will separate you from your money, your eyes and ears that cause you to take a buying decision, not just a spec sheet or time slip. We would like a V8 with rear wheel drive, from "our team", and if that's so, why even consider a car like the Solstice? If your not driving a Prelude or an RX7 now, you're not impressed by the size or the sound. Heck, there are CRX pilots now that are knocking on the 11 second door with stock bottom ends, but are you going to lose 25 pounds to fit in one for that "performance"? What I'm saying is, we want what we want, we're willing to pay a reasonable price for it, and hope the Company listens to it's loyal customers. As for me, I have my little colection of third gen Camaros going, so I'll have cars and parts to do my kind of driving for decades.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,121
From: Houston
Dang! I just went through this entire thread. I think I might just save the money I make this summer for a future car instead of buying a used Z28. Cars are expensive these days! How is a kid like me suppose to afford fun cars like this?
How is a kid like me suppose to afford fun cars like this?
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 403
From: Wish I knew..
Originally posted by stars1010
Dang! I just went through this entire thread. I think I might just save the money I make this summer for a future car instead of buying a used Z28. Cars are expensive these days! How is a kid like me suppose to afford fun cars like this?
Dang! I just went through this entire thread. I think I might just save the money I make this summer for a future car instead of buying a used Z28. Cars are expensive these days!
How is a kid like me suppose to afford fun cars like this?
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Originally posted by stars1010
How is a kid like me suppose to afford fun cars like this?
How is a kid like me suppose to afford fun cars like this?
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,121
From: Houston
Originally posted by Z28Wilson
You aren't supposed to. The V8 pony cars are not marketed to 18 year olds with $7/hour part-time jobs. I'm not saying this fits your description but the point is, a brand new V8 Camaro (or Mustang) is not a "kid's" car.
You aren't supposed to. The V8 pony cars are not marketed to 18 year olds with $7/hour part-time jobs. I'm not saying this fits your description but the point is, a brand new V8 Camaro (or Mustang) is not a "kid's" car.
hopefully Ill have a intern job this summer making around $12 an hour.
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Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 781
From: Houston TX (Chicago/Evanston IL)
In my Z06's defence..... Not only does it outrun the 911TT in the Qtr, but on the slolom, skidpad, breaking, fuel economy oh and several road corses. Ill dig up my old car and driver and MT issue when theses cars went thru there steps. I hate that bull**** "Its the feel" that matters. Now thats not what matters. "feel" Is an opinion, its subjective. What the car does on a track both in a line and around road race course is what really matters. Have you guys driven both cars. In my opinion 911s are overweight and the power comes on real goofy. Not easy to handle or control. Even the AWD 911TT is a handful and not all that fun at the limit. The Z06 on the otherhand is predictable and smooth to the limits.
Feel does not win races #s win races. Like the E/T or time to distance ect..... The second place car driver doesnt say " Oh yea! well our car that just lost, feels better."
Feel does not win races #s win races. Like the E/T or time to distance ect..... The second place car driver doesnt say " Oh yea! well our car that just lost, feels better."
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Originally posted by Evil Turbo SS
In my Z06's defence..... Not only does it outrun the 911TT in the Qtr, but on the slolom, skidpad, breaking, fuel economy oh and several road corses. Ill dig up my old car and driver and MT issue when theses cars went thru there steps. I hate that bull**** "Its the feel" that matters. Now thats not what matters. "feel" Is an opinion, its subjective. What the car does on a track both in a line and around road race course is what really matters. Have you guys driven both cars. In my opinion 911s are overweight and the power comes on real goofy. Not easy to handle or control. Even the AWD 911TT is a handful and not all that fun at the limit. The Z06 on the otherhand is predictable and smooth to the limits.
Feel does not win races #s win races. Like the E/T or time to distance ect..... The second place car driver doesnt say " Oh yea! well our car that just lost, feels better."
In my Z06's defence..... Not only does it outrun the 911TT in the Qtr, but on the slolom, skidpad, breaking, fuel economy oh and several road corses. Ill dig up my old car and driver and MT issue when theses cars went thru there steps. I hate that bull**** "Its the feel" that matters. Now thats not what matters. "feel" Is an opinion, its subjective. What the car does on a track both in a line and around road race course is what really matters. Have you guys driven both cars. In my opinion 911s are overweight and the power comes on real goofy. Not easy to handle or control. Even the AWD 911TT is a handful and not all that fun at the limit. The Z06 on the otherhand is predictable and smooth to the limits.
Feel does not win races #s win races. Like the E/T or time to distance ect..... The second place car driver doesnt say " Oh yea! well our car that just lost, feels better."
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,308
From: Calgary
Interesting post---my cataloge of road tests (3-4th gens) confrim this. What I also notice is
0-100mph times--for 350 IROC 17-18 seconds---for an LS1 11-12 seconds---they keep pulling and pulling. Acceleration curves do not fall off as fast as they used to
0-100mph times--for 350 IROC 17-18 seconds---for an LS1 11-12 seconds---they keep pulling and pulling. Acceleration curves do not fall off as fast as they used to
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Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 20
From: Louisburg, NC
Ev, You're So Right
Your ZO6 is the clear winner. But if you're going to go by strict empirical numbers, my 87 2.8 puts me closer to the Taco Bell window than the Porsche or your Vette. Although if you go by my premise of subjectivity determining your purchase, you'll look a heck of a lot better than me reaching up for the bag.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Re: Watch Where You Step
Originally posted by billhrsn
Now Evil has opened a can of worms. World class performance is not what Camaro buyers are after. The driving we do bears no resemblance to what the Euroweenies do, and certainly not what those inscrutible Asians call driving. Comparing a ZO6 to a Porsche on the dragstrip will not give you a clue why someone over here would spend six figures on a car. Nor will racing an SS versus a 275 hp AWD flat-six on the quarter mile cause you to change your "lifestyle" and opt for four doors and a dash mounted shifter. Put the worms back in the can! It's the seat of your pants that will separate you from your money, your eyes and ears that cause you to take a buying decision, not just a spec sheet or time slip. We would like a V8 with rear wheel drive, from "our team", and if that's so, why even consider a car like the Solstice? If your not driving a Prelude or an RX7 now, you're not impressed by the size or the sound. Heck, there are CRX pilots now that are knocking on the 11 second door with stock bottom ends, but are you going to lose 25 pounds to fit in one for that "performance"? What I'm saying is, we want what we want, we're willing to pay a reasonable price for it, and hope the Company listens to it's loyal customers. As for me, I have my little colection of third gen Camaros going, so I'll have cars and parts to do my kind of driving for decades.
Now Evil has opened a can of worms. World class performance is not what Camaro buyers are after. The driving we do bears no resemblance to what the Euroweenies do, and certainly not what those inscrutible Asians call driving. Comparing a ZO6 to a Porsche on the dragstrip will not give you a clue why someone over here would spend six figures on a car. Nor will racing an SS versus a 275 hp AWD flat-six on the quarter mile cause you to change your "lifestyle" and opt for four doors and a dash mounted shifter. Put the worms back in the can! It's the seat of your pants that will separate you from your money, your eyes and ears that cause you to take a buying decision, not just a spec sheet or time slip. We would like a V8 with rear wheel drive, from "our team", and if that's so, why even consider a car like the Solstice? If your not driving a Prelude or an RX7 now, you're not impressed by the size or the sound. Heck, there are CRX pilots now that are knocking on the 11 second door with stock bottom ends, but are you going to lose 25 pounds to fit in one for that "performance"? What I'm saying is, we want what we want, we're willing to pay a reasonable price for it, and hope the Company listens to it's loyal customers. As for me, I have my little colection of third gen Camaros going, so I'll have cars and parts to do my kind of driving for decades.
Great Post.
I am happy to see that...
1)Someone else wants to see the pony cars STAY pony cars instead of changing into worldly performers of some kind, and...
2)kizz and myself are not the only literary-capable folks living in down here in Nawth Ca-lina!!!
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 70
From: Bay Area, California
Muscle cars for me, are a fun car to drive period. It feels awesome just driving it around, I don't really care about numbers when I'm in a muscle car.
When it comes to performance, it's all about numbers. It might not feel right, but if it gets me the trophy or the times I need then there's no reason to complain if it doesn't feel "fun". It's performance, it can be fun, but look how much work goes into real world racing, most of it is fun.
Now a comment on the money thing. During the roaring 20s, when the car became an American neccesity and not an American luxary, the average new car cost 1200 and the underpaid clerical female worker made at least 3500 a year.
Now taking a convervative estimate. The average American makes 30 grand a year. The below average new car costs at least 15 grand. You want something even semi nice and you're in the 20 grand + range. Though we do have an advantage. 2001+ Kia's and Hyundai's are 3-5k a piece easy.
Alex
When it comes to performance, it's all about numbers. It might not feel right, but if it gets me the trophy or the times I need then there's no reason to complain if it doesn't feel "fun". It's performance, it can be fun, but look how much work goes into real world racing, most of it is fun.
Now a comment on the money thing. During the roaring 20s, when the car became an American neccesity and not an American luxary, the average new car cost 1200 and the underpaid clerical female worker made at least 3500 a year.
Now taking a convervative estimate. The average American makes 30 grand a year. The below average new car costs at least 15 grand. You want something even semi nice and you're in the 20 grand + range. Though we do have an advantage. 2001+ Kia's and Hyundai's are 3-5k a piece easy.
Alex